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Amnesty scheme for undocumented migrants in Ireland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,484 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Convey is licking his lips… he’s all for more people, more private businesses being able to thrive.. Around 28,000 new houses needed per year over the long-term to keep up with just population growth…

    while the ordinary citizens, taxpayers and their needs… go down the pan. Nice to become second class in our own democracy, sorry country.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Population growth. Do you think that just means immigration?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sounds like we should bring in a few thousand brickies to help with construction



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭enricoh


    The one n only hotel in the town we go to hollyers in the west is up for sale at the mo. Popular enough spot with yanks n Europeans floating around in the summer, tourism is vital to the town. There's whispers of it getting changed into housing refugees.

    Who needs tourists spending money, when you can have a hape of spoofers hanging around the town til they get their forever homes!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Natural population growth is declining in Ireland and throughout the developed world. If the target* is to grow the population by 1 million in 2040, that growth will increasingly skew towards migrant-driven increase as we move later into this decade and beyond.

    *Note: I don't know that this is a target / goal / ambition. If true, it's batsh*t crazy.

    Post edited by Hamachi on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Or maybe we could convince some of your undocumented / illegal buddies to pick up a trade? Win-win.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,316 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    Obviously as pointed out clearly in my post 🤷‍♀️



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Not going to happen. Direct provision is ending. Scaremongering nonsense. And we've seen the consequences of this type of scaremongering with a TDs car and hotels being firebombed.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    No they are not. if you knew anything about construction, you'd know that the sites are populated with Irish and Eastern European tradesmen.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    How callous of you to imply that illegal immigrants are black or brown. For shame sir!

    My brother runs a construction company. He knows the industry inside out. It’s very rare to see a non-white laborer or tradesman. Occasionally, they are employed as security on the sites.

    In the clown world certain posters inhabit, our 17K (?) new additions will fill the labor gap in the industry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Sure thing, 3300 have arrived since October - the word is out about the suckers in Ireland. they are all going to live in Narnia i suppose!



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So the only illegal immigrant in Ireland are black or brown?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,579 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Yeah it is and will be replaced by an even bigger sh1tshow thanks to Roddy O Gorman and Helen McEntee.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    What an astute observation. I repeat; you know nothing about the construction industry.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I never suggested I did. You said it is all eastern European workers in construction, which I have heard. Not all Europeans are EU citizens.

    are you suggesting that every single person working in construction are working legally? That there is no one working for cash in the construction industry?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm sure there's a few who would be interested.

    Unlike a lot of the naysayers here, my personal experience with many of these folks shows that they just want to live, work, raise a family and enjoy life, same as anyone else.

    Take, for example, asylum seekers, who many here like to claim as scroungers. They were granted the "right to work" in 2018. This "right" was only granted after the Supreme Court found that Ireland, being only 1 of 2 countries which banned asylum seekers from working, had a blanket employment ban that was unconstitutional and the court gave the Government several months to prepare temporary legal provision for employment. 

    Note, this ruling follows a similar recommendation by the Government Working Group on the protection and reception of asylum seekers that was published in the McMahon Report in 2015.

    That sounds great, but what was setup was farcical beyond belief with such conditions as

    • Asylum seekers must apply for a work permit
    • Must be here 6 months (used to be 9 months) before they are even allowed to apply for a permit to work
    • The permit bars asylum seekers from looking for work in An Garda Síochana, the Defence Forces and the civil service among others
    • The permit costs up to €1,000 (An adult asylum seeker gets 38.50 eur a week from the govt so it would take 6 months of saving, without spending a single penny in that time, to be able to pay for the application) Scratch that, fee was removed
    • An eligible job must have a minimum salary of €30,000
    • Can't apply for anything that requires a driving licence as these cannot be applied for while seeking asylum
    • The permit is only valid for 12 months.
    • Will only be granted to those awaiting a decision on the asylum status. If a decision against has been made and an appeal is made then a work permit will not be granted

    Now, as to the actual permit, this is the ridiculous situation:

    This permission is printed double-sided on watermarked paper with your photograph and validity period included and must be presented in this format to your employer or to any relevant bodies should you engage in vocational training, employment or self-employment.

    However

    Due to Covid-19 restrictions, LMAU are not issuing paper copies of permissions. Your permission will be issued by email. Your permission number will be in the text of the email and a copy of the permission itself is in the accompanying pdf.

    This means someone has to go to an employer with something on an A4 sheet they will have to have printed off themselves and hope an employer accepts it as legit. As reported in a linked article below, few do because it looks like a homemade document.

    Furthermore, the following are the conditions for any employer who wishes to employ someone who has one of these permits

    • Must not employ more than 50% of Non-EEA people
    • Must verify that the employee has a labour market access permission
    • Must verify that the employee has a valid TRC card.
    • Within 21 days of employing a permission holder, they must submit form LMA5 to inform the Minister about the income and employment status of the new hire
    • If the employee stops working for an employer, they must within 21 working days of the permission holder ceasing to be employed, inform the Minister of that fact
    • The following applies with regards to records also

    Now there is also the option to become self-employed however there are 2 stupid restrictions attached to that also. They are

    • You can't employ another person
    • You can't enter a business relationship with another person

    In practice this means you can never grow a business beyond a one-person operation and you also are not allowed to deal with vendors or suppliers so the actual types of business you can setup are VERY limited.

    The many barriers to getting work through design and error are also noted in the research paper below.

    research report has found that since asylum seekers in Ireland gained the right to work in June 2018, they are still facing major barriers in access to employment.


    The report focuses on the right to decent work for international protection applicants in Ireland. Improved access to decent work is achieved not just through the creation of jobs and employment, but through the creation of jobs of acceptable quality. The report's findings indicate that employment choices are disproportionately restricted for protection applicants and refugees. They routinely have difficulty finding employment in sectors of their choosing or which are relevant to their qualifications, and as a result tend towards a small number of specific employment sectors in which they know they are more likely to find work. Such sectors include childcare, healthcare and security work.


    In addition there are still many administrative barriers that prevent asylum seekers from accessing the labour market, such as having no legal right to a driving licence and issues with opening a bank account. Asylum seekers also experience difficulty in accessing employment due to work permits that seem unofficial. These permits are printed on A4 paper, and many employers are sceptical of their validity as a result. As far as women are concerned, they often find it particularly difficult to secure work due to a lack of accessible childcare.

    So when some folks go around shouting about asylum seekers being a drain on the state and not working, they really look rather silly as the system has been designed and managed in such a way as to make it incredibly difficult to actually get work in the first place.

    Thankfully, in February 2021 the Irish government committed to putting employment support at the core of the new model being implemented to replace the Direct Provision model, following the publication of the Day Report. The first step of this new model was to shorten the waiting time for access to the labour market for asylum seekers.

    Time will tell as to how many changes will be made to rectify the farcical situation that currently exists



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    That’s not what I said. I said that the sites are overwhelmingly Irish and Eastern European.

    Where did I mention that there are zero guys working for cash in construction? Hint: I didn’t.

    Are you implying that only illegal immigrants work under the table?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    1. Why are you conflating asylum seekers with illegal immigrants?
    2. Why should there be paths to employment for people who haven’t established a legitimate claim to remain in this country?
    3. Wouldn’t it be preferable to accelerate the adjudication process and deport those with zero case to remain in Ireland? That’s a true win-win for everybody. The Irish tax payer is relieved of the burden to support a bogus claimant and the risk of said individual transitioning from bogus asylum seeker to undocumented/illegal immigrant, is mitigated.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No! I think we all know plenty in construction who might be open to cash payments 😁



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Q1

    I'm not, but plenty in this thread are. I offered it as an example wrt the discussion on employment. Note, the amnesty scheme applies to asylum seekers, so fits within the context of this thread.

    Q2

    Ask the Supreme Court, they have decided that there should be access to employment. Numerous reports agree and the govt has agreed to make it easier as past schemes have been an extension of the farce that is the asylum application system here. You may not like that, but it is the situation nonetheless

    Q3

    I have no objection to Ireland getting more efficient in processing asylum applications. The current system is beyond cruelty at this point with some applications taking nearly a decade leaving whole families stuck in limbo for that period



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its not a flat, it's a tiny box of a house. And I'm not eligible for HAP.

    No it doesn't annoy me that there are Roma living in suburban 4 beds (a suburban 4bed sounds horrendous to me personally) and by former asylum seekers, do you mean refugees? I most certainly am not annoyed that refugees are eligible for HAP.

    Why those 2 particular types of people? Why not all HAP recipients?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    The only area in which we are in agreement is improving the efficacy of the asylum process. People who subvert that process, should be removed ASAP.

    Historical data shows that 70% -90% of claims prove unfounded. Rapid removal would relieve them of the ‘torture’ of being housed and fed by the Irish taxpayer. In the parameters of this discussion, it eliminates any possibility that they become undocumented in future. Like I say, everybody wins, including future genuine applicants.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure why you think it's strange? I'm not bitter or jealous. I do earn more than 50K yes, that's not a huge salary at all!

    I am paying rent until I see the next house that I want to buy. Because I want to buy a house that I love. I'm not jealous of anyone sharing a house in suburbia and having HAP pay for it, sounds like a shite way to live to me, I wouldn't be interested in living like that.

    And the former asylum seekers, they were given leave to remain in the country, yes? So why are they singled out as opposed to anyone else in HAP?

    One thing I do have an issue with however, is social welfare fraud. Unlike your buddies who seem happy enough to commit that particular crime.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well there you go, I wouldn't support welfare fraud. It is a crime. I don't support crime.

    And how does it work that HAP should only be paid for people who have worked? What about those people who cannot work or house themselves?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Does this mean that you also unambiguously condemn illegal immigration?



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Illegal immigration is obviously illegal. As such I have no issue with deportation of illegal immigrants.



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