Amnesty scheme for undocumented migrants in Ireland

Beechwoodspark

What the hell are they at with this scheme???

Some kick in the teeth for genuine migrants who chose to do things following the legal route

does mcentee think this will “play well” with middle ireland?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562307#Comment_118562307

I'd be willing to bet that unless the political landscape changes here one of the subjects that will never be put to a direct vote of the electorate is immigration. The only time it was way back in 04 with the birth passport loophole the Irish electorate said yes to closing it in the highest percentage of agreement in any recent referendum. Both repeal the 8th and the same sex marriage referendums had lower winning margins and we consider them 'landslide' victories.

The problem is our political landscape. The days of 'the parish' and nepotistic gombeenism are still with us. If Hall's Pictorial Weekly(for the old farts out there) was a youtube channel it wouldn't be running out of material any time soon. You have both McEntee and Coveney who inherited their political power from daddy, after daddy fell off the twig, or in the case of the latter a cliff after it was found money was resting in his Ansbacher account. But these jokers and those like them get in because of our backward parochial forelock tugging 19th century mindset. And then you have the Healy Raes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY

And then you have the 'alternatives'. Either full right on student union Lefties, who get a couple of people in, but have no power, or the full right complete jokes like the NP who only get a couple of votes, literally, and have no power thank christ. SF would be exactly the same or worse than FFG on this subject, though at least they'd be different faces. For a time.

And behind it all a load of high level civil servants and a holdover of good loul catholic Ireland a multitude of overlapping tax funded NGO's with the ear of the political class.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563644#Comment_118563644

They are here and at the mercy of unscrupulous employers, with no security for their lives. Most will obviously be working already.

I don't see an issue with making them legal.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563642#Comment_118563642

Why is that a bad thing? You haven't made much of a case for the need for it, apart from other EU countries doing something and that in your opinion it's not good.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563655#Comment_118563655

Any drug dealing, criminal, sexual deviant (who isn't complying with his court ordered supervision) can move here, tell no-one, and noone is aware they are here.

I don't know why people wouldn't want to know who is living here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563654#Comment_118563654

How about making them backpay all the income tax they thieved. How about convicting and then punishing them and their employers for fraud?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563651#Comment_118563651

You would be willing to take a bet that a country that has in its 100 years never had an ordinary referendum will not have an ordinary referendum to appease a minority of racists who have the support of no political parties in the country.

Really going out on a limb there wibbs.

Oh sorry you have the support of the national party.

I don't believe the Minister for Justice has mentioned prosecuting any of the businesses who have been involved in tax evasion with these illegals?

It's probably not within her remit 😏

The absolute support and or silence from every Irish TD and councillor connected with the political parties in Ireland on this subject is impressive. I've never seen anything get such unanimous support, or is it because they are cowards staying quiet to protect their careers and pockets...

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563651#Comment_118563651

The only time it was way back in 04 with the birth passport loophole the Irish electorate said yes to closing it in the highest percentage of agreement in any recent referendum.

Pretty sure the amendment to the divorce one was the highest since the Good Friday agreement, the Judges pay what was overwhelmingly voted for too.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562517#Comment_118562517

what if those Irish illegals had stayed here when there weren't jobs? They would have got social welfare which you would be paying for.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563655#Comment_118563655

It enhances the provision of services

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563587#Comment_118563587

Registration does not negate free movement. If I move to live of work in France I have to register with the authorities after a certain number of days. The UK and Ireland have always been very relaxed in keeping track of people. Maybe something to do with being Islands, we think we can control things at the frontier.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563608#Comment_118563608

Meaning we have enough criminals of our own and we dont need to be importing anymore.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563738#Comment_118563738

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/32ea7-1937-2019-referendum-results/

You are correct Boggles and Wibbs is wrong.

agoodpunt

This is an insult to irish people most who value citizenship to throw passports at many who are liers, country of choice migrants and pasport holders of 1 or more countries already.

Then let them all insundry and their dependents inc elderly sick and with zero langurage or skills.

This can only be a hugh bill and drag on exsisting resources to the state.

Heapes more to follow after this charade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563636#Comment_118563636

I don't want to derail the thread but where are you getting those figures from? I'd be interetested, I am seeing totally different percentages on the Irish prison service website.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563968#Comment_118563968

If you read court reports you would notice the very high percentage of non nationals before the courts particularly in cases involving sexual assault.

If men come from a country where they think they have a god given right to assault women they they will do the same in whatever country they land in.

They will find out here they will face the Law if they caught but at that point they have ruined the life of the woman they have attacked.

Mr. teddywinkles

What made me laugh during the week is Coveney on about the Russians in our economic waters. Yep bring up sovereignty and country when it suits the ****.

The hypocrisy is amazing.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563968#Comment_118563968

100%-17% are apparently non-Irish nationals as mentioned above, so that gives you 83% who are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564052#Comment_118564052

I'm going to have to give you a "lol" again. I just asked where the stats are coming from, because the stats I see from the Irish prison service are completely different.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563790#Comment_118563790

Not questioning what other countries do but nobody has made a case as to why we need to do anything similar. PPSN unofficially takes care of a lot of it.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563772#Comment_118563772

How exactly?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564061#Comment_118564061

You can lol away. That 17% came from another poster who I responded to. If you have different numbers then please share them as they seem to be very key metrics for some posters for some reason.

Mr. teddywinkles

A question here and maybe I'm thick but how does one who is an illegal in a country go about proving they've lived here for 4 years?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564079#Comment_118564079

Fair enough, was just wondering where that figure came from.

The figures I see are from the Irish Prison service, available on their website, dating all the way back to 2007. Currently committed prisoners with Irish Nationality are 76.8% of the total. I believe the percentage of people living in Ireland with Irish Nationality is currently 88%.

Non Irish nationals make up 23.2% of the prison population despite being 12% of the population. So they are represented at almost double their size.

The Irish prison service breaks that down further into narrower sub groups and the percentages will become even more lob-sided for some.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564063#Comment_118564063

17k illegals would be a case to show that we do need similar practices. Although, tbh, I think there's a variety of methods we could implement to determine who was here without needing such a registration process, but there simply isn't much interest in doing so.

Why do we have requirements, at all, when it comes to visas, and those wanting to come to Ireland? Why do we determine if someone has the right to work here? Shouldn't we simply open up the country to everyone who wants to come here, dropping the requirements entirely?

Those requirements are there to protect society and the economy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564100#Comment_118564100

Invoices/receipts would be my guess, along with witness statements from others.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if employers/landlords who provided for the illegal migants would be exempt from prosecution if they provided evidence that the migrant was here for those four years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564100#Comment_118564100

This is one to watch, in case all that is needed is a declaration.....if that's the case watch the country flood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564199#Comment_118564199

The more I think about this scheme, the more questions I have:

Will the thousands of businesses who have been evading paying tax for their illegal immigrant employees now be freely allowed to employ other illegals in order to keep their business model going and profit margins up?

Will there be any compensation for employers who didn't evade tax and employee illegal immigrants who saw their businesses suffer because they couldn't compete on a level playing ground with businesses who were evading tax?

Are there any businesses involved in employing illegal immigrants and evading tax who are connected to members of the 3 government parties? If so will the minister for justice take action?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563715#Comment_118563715

The 2004 jus soli referendum returned a 79% vote in favour of closing that loophole to passport hunters. Was that an 'ordinary' referendum? Were they all 'racists' too? Some in the media of the time thought so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563738#Comment_118563738

Indeed, it was 2% higher. I should have said "one of" and then you wouldn't have had to clutch at straws rather than address the point as usual. This still stands though: Both repeal the 8th and the same sex marriage referendums had lower winning margins and we consider them 'landslide' victories. So would you consider the 04 referendum result a 'landslide' victory? It seems that term is largely only applicable when it mirrors one's own politics. I voted on the winning side in all three so...

I suppose as ever this debate will go down the same pulghole with the pro immigration side shouting 'racists!' like McCarthy shouting commies! as a way of avoidance and displacement, with a sideorder of exoticism and misplaced charity. If there are NGO jobs going the CV is complete.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564199#Comment_118564199

This is it. Think shes stirring up a big rat's nest to be honest only she doesn't realise it yet.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564233#Comment_118564233

Was that an 'ordinary' referendum? Were they all 'racists' too?

No it wasn't an ordinary referendum. 🤣

Wibbs there are two types of referendum in Ireland. An ordinary referendum and a constitutional referendum. The 2004 like every other referendum held in this state was a constitutional referendum and was called to make an amendment to the constitution.

You are calling for a referendum and making no mention of changing anything in the constitution so one can only assume you want an ordinary referendum of which there have been none held in this state.

In order to call an ordinary referendum you would need the support of the majority of the Seanad and 1/3 of the Dail. There is nothing like that support. In fact I would say that none of the parties represented in the Dail or Seanad would support such a call.

The national party might but they don't have any elected representatives.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563562#Comment_118563562

Read my post again 'Closer to 100k than 17k'.

My source, well I am married to a 'foreign national', I hear with my own ears. There are loads here, invited over by family members on tourist visas or expired work visas and living under the radar.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564233#Comment_118564233

Listen to Ivana Bacik's pronouncements on people who voted for that referendum.

Yet some of those same people went away and voted her into office recently.

People need to research who they are voting for.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564280#Comment_118564280

Answer the question. All your doing is being pedantic and sidestepping as per usual.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559138#Comment_118559138

Ya sure because they have no votes….. oh wait..

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563919#Comment_118563919

This is how empty the NGO followers argument is. And we have seen this throughout when the subjects of immigration, multiculturalism, direct provision etc come up, and here it comes again.

It always boils down to charity, exoticism, the Irish wuz immigrants too! and you're all racists!! to suggest otherwise. Add in avoiding the knotty points and finally going rogue and the picture is pretty complete Now those who do suggest otherwise, that this sociopolitical experiment has issues have their fair share of headbangers too, but there is far more meat on the bone as far as actual arguments go.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564233#Comment_118564233

Indeed, it was 2% higher. I should have said "one of" and then you wouldn't have had to clutch at straws rather than address the point as usual.

What you stated as fact was indeed not a fact but you have decided to blame me for that because I pointed it out? Cool.

As for addressing your point, from what I can tell you are claiming that we will never have a referendum on immigration policy like we had in 2004 because

The problem is our political landscape. The days of 'the parish' and nepotistic gombeenism are still with us.

Was this not true 20 years ago when we had the actual referendum?

The reason I didn't highlight that point is because at best it is inconsistent.

cal naughton

You would prove easily that you were in Ireland by providing 4 years worth of bank statements. Just because you are illegal doesn't mean you don't have identification or get a utility bill put into your name

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564322#Comment_118564322

The Progressive Democrats and Micheal McDowell drove that one, FF supported them, FG did too, but wouldn't campaign for it. Labour, the Greens, Sinn Fein called it 'racist' as did NGO's. It was quite the blip.

Nonetheless, if I had added "one of" to that post of mine you'd have had nothing to come back with. As usual.

Cyclingtourist

Wibbs

"The 2004 jus soli referendum returned a 79% vote in favour of closing that loophole to passport hunters. Was that an 'ordinary' referendum? Were they all 'racists' too? Some in the media of the time thought so."

My recollection of that referendum is that the argument for changing the automatic right of those born here was based on evidence that foreign nationals, including some who were pregnant, were travelling here to avail of the 'loophole'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564359#Comment_118564359

I never knew that FG supported it but wouldn't campaign for it. Always playing games, then and now 😀

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564398#Comment_118564398

It was indeed. That automatic right was a major loophole and one that was exploited. When the loophole was closed there was quite the fall off in people showing up from outside the EU.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564359#Comment_118564359

So the main parties supported it? I don't see how that backs up your assertion.

Nonetheless, if I had added "one of" to that post of mine you'd have had nothing to come back with. As usual.

Your right, if you didn't state 'alternative facts' I wouldn't have informed the thread of the actual facts.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564412#Comment_118564412

Plausible deniability for those in the media who would otherwise support them. Politics.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564416#Comment_118564416

Yes less than one percent difference in one referendum, just over two in another. It was still a clear message and one that passed by a higher percentage than either the SSM and 8th referendums. Hang on, why the hell am I even engaging with your usual deflection guff? It's a well worn path of yours. I'll not follow you down it again.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564248#Comment_118564248

Yes the Irish electorate contains quite a few 'racist rats' who have short memories about times of mass Irish emigration that weren't always 'legal'.

But that didn't apply to them, their friends or anyone they knew so they didn't benefit. Well I've news for them, everyone in Ireland benefited from the reduction in surplus labour and/or social welfare demand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564229#Comment_118564229

I think you know that the answer is no to each of those questions.

Gardai have been known to find illegal workers and release them rather than deporting them. As such, I suspect the employers aren't punished either, otherwise we would have seen a few articles at some stage about those employers. I've seen nothing about such employment, from the perspective of punishing those who employ illegal workers....

The sense I get is that we're mirroring Merkels desire for mass immigration, with the Irish politicians wanting increased numbers of migrants to be here, and ultimately, gain citizenship. So, the businesses/employers involved won't be punished.

Think on this one... We have NGOs whose sole purpose is to represent/support migrants here, and who provide a range of services to illegal migrants.. publicly. These aren't hidden services, but announced proudly. How come these NGOs haven't had their govt investment/supports redrawn, or been investigated for enabling illegal practices in Ireland?

TomTomTim

Two of biggest pedantic posters in the history of boards are on this thread, all we need is auld Alistair to pop up and we've a trifecta😇

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564412#Comment_118564412

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562599#Comment_118562599

FG usually see what way the wind is blowing first. They never lead on anything