National Hurling League 2022 Discussion

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772330#Comment_118772330

There is more hand passing now which is also leading to more cheating on the hand pass. Also you have this modern technique of letting the ball roll out of your palm and slapping it on which is definitely on the edge of the rules.

I want it clamped down on but I don't think rules should be changed just implemented stricter and I also don't think this is something that is suddenly a problem over the last few years. I only mentioned Carey cause someone else did and was using him as an avatar for older players who were no angels just like the current ones.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772254#Comment_118772254

Nice try by you! You just THREW that comment in about DJ without having any evidence whatsoever. Enough said.

Davys Fits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LSaxqOzEbw

Some people refer to great handpasses by DJ Carey when making an argument for not changing the handpass rule. The handpass in this video was typical of DJ's style of handpass. He switches the ball from the hurl to the hand. This is a fantastic skill and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this handpass and nobody is suggesting that this type of handpass should be got rid of. We would have a much better game is this handpass and the switched hands handpass which Dj was also brilliant at would become the norm. Making argument for players not being able to release the ball easily is a load of rubbish and the reason were in this mess in the first place. The one handed handpass (throw) is too easy to execute, skill less and a blight.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772484#Comment_118772484

Great Post. You have to wonder if the way DJ executed the handpass is the solution to the current blight.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772389#Comment_118772389

I was the one that mentioned Carey for glaringly obvious reasons really; it was in response to a claim that all this current controversy around throwing the ball is due to the modern player's hands being "quicker than the refs eye" and since DJ was a very accomplished handballer known for his use of the handpass in hurling...I think you know the rest.

I note how you go somewhat to admitting that the game at the moment has a problem with throwing at a level not seen before but couldn't help throw in a "older players who were no angels just like the current ones" So which is it, were older players throwing the ball as much players today or not?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772484#Comment_118772484

Another nice example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLBaCuQygbk&ab_channel=CR%27sVideoVaults*

*I expect some will focus on Carey fouling the ball initially when he got possession as a means to deflect

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772588#Comment_118772588

Thanks Hrolf. That was the video I was searching for earlier, what a fantastic (legitimate) pass giving the ref no doubts at all about its execution

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772570#Comment_118772570

There is more hand passing in the game over all which leads to more legitimate and illegitimate one's and it is both a problem now and was before.

The clear and obvious thing to try before any rule changes is to clamp down using current rules. But I feel that's not the real agenda for some and are just using the illegal throw as an excuse to stop hand passing because hurling doesn't look like it did in the perceived "golden era" of their youth.

Mad about baa baas

Can't share the link but richie Hogans goal in the 2011 all Ireland came from another excellent legitimate hand pass from Eddie brennan...can think of lots of excellent passes.from Henry/ richie power too..I genuinely believe throwing the ball is a very recent problem..that kilkenny team were no angels but throwing the ball wasn't an issue I believe

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772745#Comment_118772745

You're correct. Persistent throwing of the ball is a recent scourge. I don't think anyone wants the handpass dispensed with but wish to see it being coached on how to properly handpass. Coaches in recent times have seized the opportunity to steal a march on opponents. But it's outside the rules and by continuing with it is just pure cheating - which must be punished. Continue all they want but accept the consequences.

As I said previously, there is no skill in throwing a ball, a child can throw a ball.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772118#Comment_118772118

No idea except to say the players of the last decade are obviously fitter, stronger and faster than those before them. The game itself is much faster and higher scoring.

It's interesting you had to name one of the all time greats of the game to make your point, would you expect a ref to have been able to spot if Carey was throwing the ball vs passing it, given how good he was anyhow? Fwiw, i've no idea if Carey did ever throw the ball btw, but if you want to do an in depth analysis of each of his bandpasses in any given season, and have the time and tech to do so, go for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772199#Comment_118772199

Wait a second here, we're discussing the lads at the top of the tree hurling-wise, not the club u-6's. These guys are all pretty skilled, and have been all the way up. I haven't coached GAA at any level, but since you have, how many inter county players (or lads who went on to play inter county) have you coached? What did you make of the rest of their skills?

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773398#Comment_118773398

Are you missing my point I wonder? Which is - this talk about throwing a ball being skillful is nonsense. As I said, a child can throw a ball but few can palm it properly without lots of coaching. The skill of handpassing starts at an early age. Certainly by the time they get to play at senior level they'd have it perfected. Unfortunately inter County coaches ignore this handpassing skill to gain an advantage. As far as I'm concerned, let them at it as long as they pay the price. Throw ball = foul = free.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773473#Comment_118773473

I possibly am misreading you, apologies if so.

My view is some intercounty hurlers are skilful enough and fast enough that a handpass can be executed so quickly that a ref can't be sure if it's a proper pass or a foul throw.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773503#Comment_118773503

👍

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773384#Comment_118773384

Well as I explained above, if one is to go back in years to find a comparison to use as a means to evaluate the notion that modern players can move their hands faster than players of the past, surely DJ is a good one. A player known for his handpassing ability, a player that didnt get blown for throwing the ball and who played in recent memory. Can you say that a typical player in the modern Cork or Limerick half back line can move their hands faster than Carey? Or if it is the case that Carey could move his hands as fast as modern players, why wasn't he constantly being blown for thrown the sliothar like modern players?

I watched Carey all his career so i don't need to do any in depth analysis at all, thanks.

Anyway the whole notion that the modern player is so skilful that they consistently perform legal handpasses faster than the eye can see is an insult to hurling people everywhere. Instead what has happened is, as part of the inevitable move towards a more possession based approach, some teams in particular recognised and decided to capitalize on lax referreeing of the handpass and the fact that they were likely to get away with more throws than they would be penalised for, started utilising a throw with a subsequent pull back of the hand in order to make it somewhat look like a legitimate pass.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774670#Comment_118774670

Excellent post.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774670#Comment_118774670

2 things here.

Firstly DJ retired 17 years ago so yes the fitness and speed is different.

Second you say DJ is innocent because referees never pulled him for it. I don't remember Gillane, Lynch or Hannon being pulled for it or many Limerick players being pulled by the ref so they must all be innocent too.

Of course speed and fitness is different, but as you are fully aware no one on here is claiming it isn't.

There was a claim made that this increase in fitness and speed is directly responsible for the controversy over throwing we have had for the last few seasons in particular and for the recent glut of players being penalised for throwing the sliothar: that in fact the players due to the advances in strength and conditioning are now executing legal handpasses faster than the eye can see.

So why don't you come out and state if you believe this to be the case?

Come on now, no more deliberate ambiguity, no more half answers to questions you weren't even asked, just give your opinion, have developments in strength and conditioning over the last decade or couple of decades lead to a situation where modern players are executing legal handpasses faster than referees eyes can see them and that this explains the situation we have where many pundits, supporters etc. think that we have a major problem with throwing in the modern game?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777713#Comment_118777713

Who are you asking ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777899#Comment_118777899

You, I lost your quoted post somehow

Davys Fits

If we are getting into micro physics here then you could argue that at some point when throwing a ball there could be space between the ball and the hand before its released. The whole argument is ridiculous. Sport is full of grey areas but when the grey area is dominating the sport then something needs to change.

If it look like a throw then its a throw and lets change the rule.

C4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777713#Comment_118777713

There are two separate fouls in the rulebook regarding handpasses. It's a foul to throw the ball but it's also a foul to handpass without releasing the ball and executing a clear striking action. So it's possibly a moot point about legal handpasses that are too fast to see. If a clear striking action isn't apparent to the ref, it's a foul.

Grats

Croke Park ought to stop sitting on their hands and back the refs regarding the throw ball. They really should contact RTE and explain the rule to the GAA analysts. A few of those analyst wish to turn a blind eye to the persistent fouling of the ball to suit their own agenda. All the more reason to hammer it home.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778955#Comment_118778955

I have found the analysts on RTE and elsewhere are buying their heads in the sand on this issue. There are too many 'let it flow' merchants. It doesn't suit their agenda to make negative comments and to call it out for what it is , instead they are more interested in having a free flowing game at all costs so their job is made easier.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759257#Comment_118759257

Daly likes to be seen as the players friend and probably always keeping an eye out for his next job.

So you will hear this let the game flow nonsense when refs pull throws, or this limerick playing on the edge rubbish to explain their glut of red cards.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777956#Comment_118777956

I have been saying its happening and needs to be cracked down on all along. It was someone else who said the fitness made the hand pass to hard to see.

My only argument was it's not new.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779137#Comment_118779137

TV people seem to have the opinion that the best pundits are former players but I think they have it all wrong. Too many of the old lads see a horrible tackle and think "shure that's grand I used do that all the time" In the soccer my favourite analysts have never kicked a ball professionally and I wish the GAA had more qualified journalists rather than players on panels.

Grats

The persistent throwing of the ball IS new. I guess that's why there's so much conversation about it. If the throw ball is allowed to continue, sure why not break other rules too such as steps.

Just to emphasise, PERSISTENT.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780443#Comment_118780443

I mean the steps rule is constantly broken. Another one that's been going on for years.

You are right though on persistent being new with the hand pass but there were also a lot less hand passes before.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780243#Comment_118780243

Definitely would like to see more journalists on as analysts, they're far more likely to call it as it is without their own county affiliation getting in the way and they might provide a different perspective.

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780443#Comment_118780443

Agreed, and some teams more than others.

Corcaigh84

In fairness to DJ from what I can remember it was fairly obvious he was making the legal backward motion when handpassing (from either hand). Don't recall him fouling the ball much.

breezy1985

Not many games of significance left in the final round.

Limerick v Offaly play to avoid the relegation playoff, KK will probably need a win against Waterford with Dublin playing Laois and Antrim can still stay up with a Win over Tipp again if Laois lose.

mercury16

So DJ Carey was a multi all-Ireland winning handball and multi world champion winning handball player. He didn’t need to throw it, and yes his hands were that good and fast, and having won what he won playing handball I seriously doubt the modern hurler who doesn’t play handball to his level would have hands that pass the ball as fast as him. So not a good comparison.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783895#Comment_118783895

Feel Offaly are going to be hammered by Limerick. Wexford vs Cork is a battle for 1st and 2nd, while Galway vs Clare is a dead rubber but could still be a good game as players will be out to impress

Yeah Kilkenny need to win or draw to qualify for the semi finals, thankfully Waterford more or less through already. A Dublin win against Laois may be enough for them to get through but need Kilkenny to lose or Waterford to lose and the Dubs score something crazy. Tipperary could qualify if they beat Antrim and Dublin/Kilkenny both lose

Butterbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783958#Comment_118783958

But the point being made was that the modern player is too fast for the eye to see in terms of handpassing.....which is complete BS. There wasn't a better handpasser of the ball than DJ in terms of speed, accuracy and power, and there was never any doubt about the legitimacy of his handpasses, so I'd say it's a great comparison.

And no one needs to throw it, they choose to.

laoisman11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783895#Comment_118783895

I understood that Antrim are into the relegation final as even if they win, they will lose out to Laois on the head-to-head. Hardly fair considering the good performances and superior score difference, but those are the rules........

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784217#Comment_118784217

Ya your right. I thought it was points difference.

They could have pulled points out of all their tough games and then blew it against Laois which is mad.

big_drive

Any place online to see Cork vs Wexford this weekend?

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784217#Comment_118784217

2A to Division 1 is a big leap. Antrim, Laois and Offaly would be better suited to the old 1B Division.

PTH2009

2A is the group that keeps on giving. Down beating Kerry who may now miss out on the final if Westmeath beat Kildare tomorrow

C4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806068#Comment_118806068

There's a play off between the teams that finish 2nd and 3rd apparently.....so kerry will have another shot

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806108#Comment_118806108

Yeah, 2nd v 3rd in a semi-final this year. An unnecessary step. Better off with a straight final.

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806170#Comment_118806170

Didn't know that, bloody stupid idea, should of just been 1st vs 2nd in the final

C4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806248#Comment_118806248

Even stranger is that there is a relegation playoff in 2B but none in 2A or 3A where the bottom team just goes straight down.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814309#Comment_118814309

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806248#Comment_118806248

I really think the whole league structure is a a farce and makes the GAA look foolish. Stop this 1A,1B rubbish and it's a league, whoever is top after everyone has played their games wins. We have a cup competition afterwards so no need for another one as part of the league!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814309#Comment_118814309

The reason for 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B rather than 2 3 4 5 is that the GAA felt the gap between 2B and 3A is much bigger than 2A and 2B which is why the promotion system is different.

Not agreeing with it just stating it btw.

PTH2009

Cccc (or whatever there called) taking there time announcing next weekends fixtures

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814700#Comment_118814700

It should have been home advantage for the 1A and 1B winners. Seems only fair