Supreme Court Describes Traveller Community as “Vulnerable Minority”

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565067#Comment_118565067

It's called a recurring problem, and recurring problems will always be talked about. Imagine is they changed their ways? We'd have no ammo, and topic would eventually disappear. We'd all honestly love that.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563260#Comment_118563260

that people break the law and the gards are under resourced? no unfortunately that is true.

or if you mean it's a load of shite that both being the case exists and it should be changed, then i couldn't agree more.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563518#Comment_118563518

i know, you couldn't make it up.

to be honest they just want to rant regardless of how inconsistent their ranting is .

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563548#Comment_118563548

incorrect.

the gards aren't simply not enforcing the law against travelers, they are struggling to enforce the laws across the board.

not being able to enforce the law is not nor even similar to legal immunity, it is simply a failure of the state to do it's job and resource the services of the state properly.

for travelers to have legal immunity from the law, that would mean legislation existing or clauses in all legislation stating that the laws do not apply to travelers.

no such thing exists, ergo they do not have legal or any immunity from the law.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564658#Comment_118564658

they are under resourced to do all of the jobs required of them, that is a fact.

the fact they do enforce some laws does not change that fact.

Skill

Travellers are of course a vulnerable community - shorter lifespan, higher child mortality, higher suicide levels, poorer mental health - and that's only the health indicators. You can argue the whys, and there are certainly things to address within traveller culture, but excluding them and talking them down all the time ain't the way to address what is a real issue.

there's a new generation of travellers who are staying longer in education, lots of them high achievers, and that's a real, positive change within the community. Attitudes in the settled community need to change too.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565688#Comment_118565688

Can you prove the last statement? A few travellers out of thousands of them isn't much of a change, I doubt it's even more than 1% of them to be honest. Dublin for some reason sees a higher amount of these types, I haven't seen any of this change down the country, God knows why. I drank with a young traveller one night in Dublin, who was honestly sound, and genuinely wanted to change his ways and their culture, but people like him are rare in my view sadly.

Do you by any chance know any settled people who fight them? Who aren't terrified of them? Because I've known a handful of men, who'd be willing to go up against them, and there's a good reason for that. Many of the men are honestly bullies of the worst kind, and as heartless as can be, so I always find it odd that the bullied are meant to change their way to appease bullies. It's not going to happen, and no amount of pontificating will change that, because most of us see what we see with our eyes, and know that the righteous defenders of travellers are simply wrong.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564702#Comment_118564702

those travelers won't be allowed stay there long, they will be moved on ultimately.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565688#Comment_118565688

How do our attitudes need to change?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565688#Comment_118565688

You can argue the whys, and there are certainly things to address within traveller culture, but excluding them and talking them down all the time ain't the way to address what is a real issue.

Travellers, due to their recognised ethnic minority status, receive benefits that are not available to the average Irish person. Whether that's favorable interest in welfare cases such as disability, or educational grants, the fact remains that they have more supports available to them. Even the allocation of social housing happens outside of the main process, with Travellers receiving special attention as a distinct category. Assuming that there is no real difference between Irish people and Travellers, then the only difference that exists is that of culture.

Traveller culture is what encourages young people to leave school early, not attend third level, live in halting sites in squalid conditions, child prostitution, minors involved in bare knuckle fighting, drug abuse, etc.

IF people truly cared about Travellers themselves, then there would be definite efforts to wean them away from Traveller culture and to have them embrace mainstream Irish culture, leading to much better lifestyle for them. If people truly cared for Travellers, there would be less emphasis on enabling (financially) Travellers to live within the boundaries of their traditional culture, because the common sense approach would identify Traveller culture are being the core reason as to why they live such awful lives.

I'm always amused when I see threads like these, where posters call those who criticise Travellers racist.. as if by doing so they're protecting some vulnerable group that needs our help... except these posters are not protecting Travellers. They're ensuring that Travellers continue to live in an environment which is so unhealthy and ultimately ruins lives.

This new generation of Travellers that are succeeding, are doing so because they're usually settled, and have embraced the main aspects of mainstream Irish society, giving up on the traditional aspects of Traveller culture that is so destructive. They're a distinct minority, because the financial/other supports provided by the Irish State, provide few real incentives for people to change....

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565067#Comment_118565067

And will continue thus for as long this group of otherwise perfectly ordinary Irish people continue to get special treatment. How on earth we have got to a position where they can do what they will is beyond me.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565995#Comment_118565995

There is no need to change all of Traveller culture, just those aspects of it that are born mainly of toxic masculinity, the treatment of women and girls, the fighting, the disregard for the environment etc.

Traveller culture wasn't always such. If you go back far enough, they were the original recyclers, taking old stuff and upcycling and reusing. The nomadic aspect to their culture isn't wrong of itself either. However, an awful lot needs to change and very quickly.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565688#Comment_118565688

Get back to us for a high five when it's down to 50%.

"The statistics in this regard are stark. On foot of the census carried out by the CSO in 2016, we are aware that 80% of Travellers within the potential workforce are unemployed in comparison with 13% of the general population. Some 1.1% of Travellers are self-employed, compared with 16.6% of the wider community." https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community/2019-12-10/2/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566122#Comment_118566122

And how do you surgically cut out the tumours? I doubt it can be done.

I think it's more practical to take away/treat Travellers exactly the same as other Irish people... with the emphasis on showing how the negative aspects of Traveller culture are so bad for them.. and then later, once Travellers are no longer such a disadvantaged group, come back to supporting the revitalisation of the culture.

As long as Travellers are supported by the State to be different, there's no real pressure on them to change. I've known many Traveller families over the years, and there's a lot of peer/familial pressure (often violent in nature) to continue living as their parents/grandparents did. To entice Travellers away from that lifestyle, it needs to be revealed as impractical in a modern setting. Supporting it doesn't do that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566210#Comment_118566210

I am with you that there is a requirement for massive massive changes in Traveller culture. However, we haven't ever tried to properly address it.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566122#Comment_118566122

Imho the younger generation have no respect and act the eegit hard men and women etc.,

This will set a precedent and open a can of worms for local councils

Hodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563228#Comment_118563228

From time to time I read about illegal dumping by halting sites but what I never read or hear about is anyone being fined or prosecuted by the local council over the Illegal dumping when it takes place at halting sites.

While there is often prosecutions by councils against other people for Illegal dumping' like I said never do I hear about any prosecutions when Illegal dumping takes place by halting sites' given such a lack of prosecutions what other way can people Interpret things other then legal Immunity as the other poster said..

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566161#Comment_118566161

That would be ideal but Travellers aren't even able to get a pint in a pub, how do you expect them to just go out and get a job?

I don't know what the answer is, but expecting Travellers to abandon everything they've ever known, their entire families and way of life, to better fit in with a society that has only ever treated them like dirt and ostracised them, is a tough ask.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566079#Comment_118566079

they don't get special treatment, they get some extra help and supports due to the greater difficulties they face compared to the rest of us.

they don't get to do what they will, the greater amount of travelers in prison shows this.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566346#Comment_118566346

Chicken and the egg problem. All the negatives you have mentioned have a root cause. Suggesting that reactions to the root causees need to be addressed first is simply not getting it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566122#Comment_118566122

all of those are against the law already, so all that is needed is more gardai to enforce the laws.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566362#Comment_118566362

Great... an even higher percentage of Travellers in prison... how does that resolve anything? It's merely deferring the problem on to other generations.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566283#Comment_118566283

they could interpret it as the councils not doing their jobs, which is really the correct interpretation.

Ray Palmer

It is important to note the council failed in their duty to provide accommodation after the initial site was damaged. They also didn't go take the funding waiting to be used for that very purpose. They then want to kick them off the land with no alternative. The council failed here in their duties.

I have had run ins with certain travelers over the years and I could easily think of them as all the same. The reality is councils all over Ireland are refusing money to provide accommodation that they are meant to. That is discrimination and they are a separate minority in this country how anybody following the law could see it differently would be a miracle.

I get why people knee jerk to the ruling but the council are at fault here. They have to acomadate them and if they think they don't they should resign.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566361#Comment_118566361

it is getting it because we know what exactly is going on.

the reactions to the route cause are not reactions to the route cause, but to the fact the individuals are of a particular background in the first place.

the reactions to the route cause are disproportionate compared to the reaction to the route causes of any other individuals outside the community who have had the exact same route cause, not based on the amount of individuals who the route causes apply to but because of the backgrounds the individuals from the traveling community come from.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566372#Comment_118566372

how does anyone going to prison resolve anything?

ultimately where an individual is a danger to the public then sending them to prison protects the rest of us from them regardless of who those individuals are.

for the non-criminal aspects of traveler culture then education is the only option, removing supports or other things certainly won't change it but would highly likely make a lot of them regress further into those aspects so that's not an option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566455#Comment_118566455

removing supports or other things certainly won't change it but would highly likely make a lot of them regress further into those aspects so that's not an option.

How do we know it's not an option when it hasn't been attempted? There hasn't been any research/investigation into whether it's a viable answer to the situation. Instead, the focus is entirely on supporting Travellers in maintaining the lifestyle they have.

As for education, that does nothing to affect adult travellers, and relying on it as a means to educate/inform travellers does nothing to encourage change. It's a long-term hope that may or may not work...

As for regressing.. they're already there. Look at the rates of criminality within the Traveller community. Not all of what happens results in people going to jail, so there's a lot of scope for criminality to exist within the culture but protected by the community itself. Domestic abuse being a good example of such behaviour.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566362#Comment_118566362

So its the guards fault for not stopping them from breaking the law?

Considering the consensus here is that the guards aren't doing enough to police the state, people only go to prison when they get caught, adolescent Travellers commit a lot of crimes and its actually hard enough for someone from any background to get a prison sentence these days if they have a sob story the below figures are totally disgraceful:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40018400.html

“It also reflects a wider trend in the criminal justice system. We know that Traveller men make up more than 10% and Traveller women make up 22% of the adult prison population. The total Traveller population only constitutes 0.7% of the population.”

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565568#Comment_118565568

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/footage-inside-lavish-irish-wedding-23423394

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40282505.html

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/gardai-attend-traveller-wedding-fiasco-20585312

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566511#Comment_118566511

we know from the country's own past that such would not work, because the brutalisation of catholics is one of the main reasons why upon our part liberation from the UK ireland turned heavily to the church.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566525#Comment_118566525

no, it's the government's fault that they won't fund and resource the gardai sufficiently so that they can catch more law breakers

obviously it is the fault of the individual who breaks the law that they break it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566552#Comment_118566552

yes the gardai dismantled the tent and rightly so.

a job well done.

those who attended would have been in contempt of court so it's for the court to decide what should have happened in relation to this incident.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566554#Comment_118566554

Entirely different situation, and also a very different time. Society has moved on considerably since then. You're not comparing like with like.

Anyway, treating Travellers the same as other Irish people doesn't remove all their supports/benefits. It simply doesn't provide extra benefits to being a Traveller, or provide the emphasis on retaining Traveller culture.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566712#Comment_118566712

when you engage in attempts to eradicate a culture, then the people of that culture whether it be religious or other, will turn harder to that culture as soon as the ability for them to do so comes around.

the fact that ireland's hard turn to the cc was a century ago and society has moved on does not change that fact.

of course i am not comparing like with like as catholicism and traveler culture are different things with catholicism being a religion and traveler culture being a way of life, but the facts still remain the same when attempts are made to forcibly move people away from cultural or religous ways of life.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566346#Comment_118566346

Blacksmiths

Shoemakers

Cottage farmers

To give just three examples, all had to abandon their way of life and embrace change, why are travellers any different ?, their " culture " is obsolete ,even the bits that weren't destructive

Hodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566346#Comment_118566346

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCIILVKgnWI

This bar owner said it out straight " I had problems with travelers in the past and I won,t have it again ". a lot of bar owners would say likewise to be honest.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566898#Comment_118566898

because the 3 professions you mention we professions which for the most part became unviable due to plastics and mechanisation etc.

traveler culture on the other hand, is a culture and way of life.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566738#Comment_118566738

when you engage in attempts to eradicate a culture, then the people of that culture whether it be religious or other, will turn harder to that culture as soon as the ability for them to do so comes around.

I didn't say anything above about eradicating a culture. In fact, I said above that it should be downplayed while Travellers are weaned away from the negative aspects of Traveller culture, and once that's achieved, revitalise the interest in the positive aspects of Traveller culture.

of course i am not comparing like with like as catholicism and traveler culture are different things with catholicism being a religion and traveler culture being a way of life, but the facts still remain the same when attempts are made to forcibly move people away from cultural or religous ways of life.

So, you know its not a valid comparison. Grand. And we already seek to regulate the behaviour of people in society through taxes, laws, fines, etc. We've already decided that various behaviours are unwelcome, or shouldn't be allowed. The fact is that the only real difference between Irish people and Travellers is their culture, and that cultural difference points to the recurrent behaviours relating to crime, abuse, etc.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567653#Comment_118567653

it's a valid comparison as the principals are the same.

i didn't say you wanted to eradicate traveler culture, i am well aware you didn't.

however again the principal of what you suggest and the principal of someone who would want to eradicate the culture end up in a similar situation if carried out.

the negative aspects of traveler culture are already against the law so those issues can be dealt with if the will to fund the resources to enforce the law were given.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567806#Comment_118567806

It's not a valid comparison. It's not comparing like with like, and you already acknowledged the difference between a religion and a cultural group. Never mind, the difference between Ireland of today, vs that time in the past.

The negative aspects of Traveller culture are protected and encouraged within the umbrella that is Traveller culture. It provides an excuse to behave in such a manner.. and while it is against the law, the community tends to protect those who engage in it. The roles of men/women boys/girls are not set by mainstream Irish culture, but by Traveller culture, and that extends into how people behave towards each other and those outside the Traveller community.

The decline in acceptance by Travellers of Traveller culture would automatically cause the decline of that behaviour, because the triggers would be removed. The best way to remove a habit is to alter the environment where people are... whether that's the case of the physical location such as halting sites (which tend to be disasters even when built by the council), or simply that welfare is not extended to a ethnic group, rather than individual circumstances (the same as it is for most Irish people).

At that point your belief in education would be most effective... but without the effort to remove those triggers, education is not going to accomplish much except as a way of deferring the problem on to the next generation.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567578#Comment_118567578

I think that's really really sad. I really do. Honestly I just don't know what the answer is. I have sympathy for both parties there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566391#Comment_118566391

From what I have heard Councils are refusing funds because although the funds provided may go most of the way to provision the infrastructure there is no ongoing funding commitment from central government to maintain the infrastructure and upkeep would then have to be done with budget taken at the expense of other clients of the Council.

I do not know if it is true but it seems plausible.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566391#Comment_118566391

Pretty much all of that is factual incorrect.

In a very brief summary.

The family were provided with a purposely built site with 6 houses. 2 of them which farcically cost 1.7 million to build.

They all burned down or were destroyed in some fashion.

Mr. McDonagh then asked the County Council to buy him a house in Cork because he wasn't going on the waiting list or instead buy him out of the site. This was refused.

They were then moved into private rented accommodation for 5 years but had to leave that because it required renovation. They then bought caravans and mobile homes and setup a dwelling with the rest of the family near the initial site.

They were then offered several other choices, all turned down.

The site of the 6 burnt houses was then repurposed for 40 social houses, they were offered one of these brand new houses, turned down.

Now remember the councils remit is "need not want".

They need shelter, housing, which they were offered several options, what they want is 6 brand new houses for them and their 5 adult children built on the same site.

I have no interest in general traveler bashing and am only basing my opinion on the merits and facts of this particular case, I'm sure the Council erred in some way, incompetence is par for the course, but to suggest they are completely at fault is just false.

Add to all that the background of feuding, armed police, machete attacks, arson, etc. It's a complete mess.

40 social houses built in the space required to house one extended family. Can that be true?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118574645#Comment_118574645

https://www.clarecoco.ie/your-council/[news]/minister-visits-ashline-social-housing-development-in-ennis.html

Initial instinctive response when faced with facts like that is to hell with their "Cultural" or "Ethnic" sensibilities and divert all money earmarked for provision of traveller accommodation to the building of social housing accessible to all including those who identify as members of the Travelling Community.

zom

"Contributing to Society has no value anymore. No logic, no common sense in modern Political Correctness I afraid. It is terrifying that we slowly got into such mess, tricked by politicians and media. Vicious, depraved and destructive powers are glorified and popularized while any criticism is banished and penalised. And to be clear - I'm not talking about someone specific here in case of racism accusation."

Is that what REAL Democracy does mean? Like having half of society (hypothetically) being a criminals, if they have a right to vote, the real Democracy will allow them to take control over rest of the Society?

Apologies for aswering my own post but for some reason I cant make it editable on this computer

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118574662#Comment_118574662

Because they are legally entitled to. And what you know about what would be tolerated in other countries could be written on the back of a a match box.