2022 Irish EV Sales

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873018#Comment_118873018

All this goes to prove is that currently EVs are becoming even less accessible for the majority of people. Until a steady supply of reasonably priced EVs becomes available it will be some time yet before they will begin to replace the existing ICE fleet to any great degree

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873077#Comment_118873077

Should this not be possible on the used car market in the years ahead, although due to degradation the real range of all but the bigger battery cars will be somewhat less than 400kms.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873022#Comment_118873022

You would struggle to pick up a used Ioniq 38kwh for that kind of money at this point. Used EV prices are ridiculous at this point unless you are doing massive mileage

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873652#Comment_118873652

Range of mine will still be good in two years time when I upgrade. EVs will filter down. It will take time but they will.

Squeaksoutloud

Those first edition ID4s looks like serious value now. Even excluding the smaller range version the prices have increased an unstainable amount for most. I could have afforded one of those 42k versions but finding the 55k EVs a jump too far.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873855#Comment_118873855

Just shows you that, while input costs have increased, manufacturers are making an absolute killing with EVs af the moment.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118872313#Comment_118872313

Are you suggesting that the OEMs do not bump up the prices to reflect the subsidy?

Gumbo

Not surprised on the ID4 ratio relative to the ID3 as the taxi grant would push this.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873855#Comment_118873855

I think the ioniq 5 lower spec fall into same bracket. Great "value". But even then they used to be around the e39k mark but have crept up to closer to 41k already.

Killer K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874063#Comment_118874063

Not ony that but this argument that they are not claiming part of the tax is ridiculous and keeps getting spouted out. It is a subsidy of 5,000 as you have pointed out.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566109#Comment_118566109

Yeah, if you're willing to wait a year, but many people wouldn't be willing to wait for an unspecified month in 2023.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118569882#Comment_118569882

This exactly.

I've had 2 Leaf 24s for nearly 5 years and they have been great. 3 bars gone on the 2012 model and 2 bars on the 2014. Still enough to do my commute with 30% left arriving home, but I wanted more range for the times I might need it.

I was very close to ordering a red Model 3, but Tesla added 3k to the price which added about 7k for choosing red. I really like the M3, but the price just got mental and it was already above what I wanted to spend.

The Leaf 40 on the other hand doubles my current range and will be the first new car I have ever bought. I usually buy 3+ years old to let the first buyer take the depreciation hit. This time around, with the 0% finance, it made sense to buy new. I would have a 100% healthy battery and the repayments were within a few euro per month when compared to a car with 60-80k klms on the clock. I almost never rapid charge (maybe a dozen times in a year) and while I would rather have access to CCS, the CHAdeMO wasn't a deal breaker.

I went with the 2-Tone Tekna spec for 30k plus 4k paid upfront (by choice...could have financed the lot at 0%). Delivery expected in July. Monthly payments of €500 is a much easier ask than about 12k up front and monthly payments of circa €750+ on a Model 3.

Everywhere I looked, there was a deal breaker issue. Every suitable competitor had a long waiting period into 2023. Anything that might have had a shorter time was well above 50k, or was a small hatch like the e-corsa and would have been uncomfortable and unsuitable for my needs. Perhaps my head needs examining, but I'm pretty sure I made the right choice even though I wasn't considering the Leaf when I started to seriously look.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874044#Comment_118874044

I don't think they are. Most base version EVs are not profitable for the manufacturers except higher spec / longer ranges ones (and all Teslas)

liamog

my point is that, to replace the national fleet in any serious way, we need 2nd hand EVs in the sub €15k category, where most of the transactions in the motor industry happen.

Where do you think 2nd hand cars come from?

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878082#Comment_118878082

i was referring to the fact that it will take far longer for EV’s to depreciate to affordable mass-market 2nd hand levels, which is where 90% of annual transactions happen.

the lesser-off people who buy cheap cars aren’t going to magic up the money to buy a car simply because it’s propulsion system is different, meaning the car price needs to come down to their level.

So my point was - when will e.g a 2019 Kia Niro be worth €10-15k, never mind an ID4 or an Ioniq5.

when that happens, the Gov will have no problem with their 1m target (1m EVs is just 40% of the national fleet)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902187#Comment_118902187

You can't create a 2nd hand car without first selling a new one. The 1m target for EVs will primarily be fulfilled by selling 1m new EVs, Brexit has made import of 2nd hand cars from the UK too costly. What would you do to create a large number of 2nd hand EVs?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902249#Comment_118902249

The problemis that most new EVs being sold currently are high end / high spec models which will not be affordable / suitable for many for long number of years. The Govt are never going to meet their (as usual) arbitrary target of 1m EVs, by the sale of Teslas, etrons, ID4s, Enyaqs, ioniq 5, EQ6, etc. We really need a plentiful supply of smaller more affordable cars before there's any possibility of achieving those numbers.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902751#Comment_118902751

agreed.. Chinese are on the way though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9akwd_qwibw

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902751#Comment_118902751

Except nobody wants the small EVs. Everyone goes for the luxury end of the market, or expensive SUV. Very few outside of early adopters club choose cars that will be 10-15k in a few years.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903393#Comment_118903393

The most popular segments in general are the high value SUV cars, the problem runs deeper than a lack of budget EVs, budget cars in general are doing badly

On top of that you see brands like VW basically abandoning the compact segment to focus on higher margins and Kia/Hyundai are moving more into luxury cars

I think what has happened is that most brands basically don't want to compete in the low margin budget cars so they're basically not going to bother

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903393#Comment_118903393

So nobody wants small EVs

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118904550#Comment_118904550

The people who buy new cars do not want to buy small compact budget cars, the people who buy small compact budget cars won't buy new ones. There's going to be a huge gap in the market when you put those two together.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905180#Comment_118905180

Where have all the current second hand small cars from then?

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905317#Comment_118905317

Well aren't we chronically short of 2nd hand cars at the moment?

And more to the point I think Liamog was probably referring to more recent phenomena re SUV v compact car. It would be interesting to see where the SUV market share has come from, did it purely replace family saloons or has it also replace some of the more compact budget offerings.

Mostly saloons, some manufacturers are leaving the segment entirely or running down their range.

Black_Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905180#Comment_118905180

Yes, but the expense of an EV still pushes it outside the small car market, and small cars typically do less miles so it's a slower recuperation of that extra expense.

Certainly a market for small sized cars, but not at the price point EVs can meet it at.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905509#Comment_118905509

Well, not at the prices mainstream manufacturers are charging. They'll leave that segment to the budget brand like Dacia

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118905877#Comment_118905877

Very true. I honestly thought at this stage that smaller family EVs would be a lot more popular here. Had everything not gone tits-up it looked as though smaller EVs such as the ID.3 should be selling for around the €28K with a medium size battery, competing directly with the ICE Golf/Focus segment. Instead, of course, manufacturers are concentrating on high profit models. Smaller cars are very popular throughout Europe and beyond.

Mantis Toboggan

Problem for small compact cars is that they have small batteries and small range. If the compact car has the same range as the bigger cars at compact prices then they would sell easily.

slave1

Zoe and Kona have probably the longest ranges out there, Kona deffo

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906229#Comment_118906229

Not totally true, my 58kWh ID.3 had enough range for many and similar enough to some more expensive larger cars. And had all gone well over the last year or two the price would now be very competitive imo.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906263#Comment_118906263

Agree. The ID3 is equivalent to the Golf in size which has been the best selling car across Europe for years so no reason why the ID3 sized EVs shouldnt be equally as popular in future. At some point Irish people may once again get over their irrational love affair with faux SUVs and fall more into line with rest of Europe.

If the Govt(s) were actually serious about EVs replacing ICEs, in the kind of arbitrary timeframes set out, they would incentivise manufacturers to supply more affordable EVs rather that the current approach where manufacturers are incentivised to produce and supply more profitale options laden SUV type vehicles.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906229#Comment_118906229

VW E-Up has a 35kWh battery giving it plenty of range considering the size of the car. Should get 250km motorway driving easily enough

And that's an older car, a newer design should be able to fit more cells and have faster charging on top. Peugeot e208 is a good example

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906507#Comment_118906507

The older E-Up (20kWh) won't even do 100km at motorway speeds. The current model gets nowhere near 200km at motorway speeds from its 32kWh

fits

Almost 1300 EVs registered in April. Almost twice last year's numbers

https://twitter.com/GerHerbert1/status/1521460946014818306?s=20&t=_Qn3CkN7tv2DkPe35DJ6aQ

the_amazing_raisin

Seeing a lot of ID cars as well as Ioniq 5s and EV6s around, they all seem to be ramping up despite material shortages

Lots of Tesla M3s and a couple of MYs as well.

I feel like Stellantis are still waiting to pull the finger out. I know a lot of their EVs look basically the same as the fossil versions so they're harder to spot, but they still seem very much the laggard of the main brands. Other than a couple of Mokka Es and the odd Peugeot EV I don't think I've seen any of their EVs around recently

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902905#Comment_118902905

But do we need anymore cheap Chinese cars that are poorly made? What about the carbon footprint of a car being shipped from China? We need more affordable European cars for the masses.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012290#Comment_119012290

Chinese cars will come either way. Better they be EV.

The likes of iX3 are exclusively Chinese built and nobody seem to complain about quality. Same with pretty much all of the mass produced electronics these days. And don't mention about the components for European cars that are made in China. A notable exception are actually be German Teslas due to the vertical integration: Pretty much everything will be made in Germany.

unkel

I hear very few people complaining about the build quality of their €1000+ iPhones, made in China.

slave1

No complaints on my Chinese Tesla M3, way better build quality than my US Model S

PaulRyan97

Interesting issue I noticed with Toyota's figures. I went looking to see how many RAV4 Primes they'd sold, as I've seen a handful of them on the roads now, and I noticed that Toyota don't have any plug-in hybrids registered this year. It looks like all RAV4 sales are getting registered as regular HEVs.

You can still find them though by looking at the CO2 emissions of all registered RAV4s. As only the Prime would have CO2 emissions in the sub 80g/km range (even under NEDC) you can assume all RAV4s in that band are Prime models.

I was shocked to see that they accounted for over half of all RAV4 sales, over a thousand units. This would make it by far the most popular PHEV in the country this year.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118902249#Comment_118902249

I wonder if Govt could do a rebate for Customs/VAT costs for EV 2nd hand imports.....

Should be possible for Govt to set it up legally so that the EV sits in a yard in Rosslare for an hour with customs duty owing.* And then the rebate effectively cancels the bill.

*my suspicion is that with the Brexit stuff the bill must be issued. So may need a way where Customs issue a charge but its paid by someone like SEAI electronically within the hour.

Stupid I know but then stupid things like Brexit need daft work arounds

slave1

We are talking about primarily UK imports, with Sterling and UK pricing it's no longer attractive to import even forgetting about VRT/Customs/VAT

unkel

Exactly. Prices of second hand EVs in the UK are even higher than here. Forget about importing one even if there was zero VRT, zero VAT, zero import duty

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019846#Comment_119019846

Which is why driving/buying ICEs will remain Hobson's choice for many people for quite a while to come.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020292#Comment_119020292

No idea how you jumped to that conclusion. It's quite the opposite, regardless of budget. Buying a €5k 10 year old Nissan Leaf in Ireland will have a lower total cost of ownership than getting a banger ICE for free and driving that if you do average mileage or more.

More and more people are becoming less ignorant and starting to understand this though, which is driving up the price of second hand EVs. Obviously the people in the UK are a bit ahead of us in this understanding, that's why their EVs have had even higher negative depreciation than the ones over here.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020557#Comment_119020557

The issue is the gap between supply and demand ... there simply isn't enough cheap leafs to go around. It's not all about ignorance of the value of EVs. In any case even if they were more plentiful, older badly degraded Leafs dont really suit single car households as they are simply too inconvenient when having to do a journey or multiple journeys exceedong 40kms or so in a single day. I know as I have one and yes find it great for shorter journeys but reglarly have to use the diesel for longer journeys.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012339#Comment_119012339

Yeah it looks like most of the European brands have just about given up on budget cars in general, let alone EVs

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021154#Comment_119021154

They make great second cars though. And the only reason the gap between supply and demand is getting bigger is that demand is getting bigger because people are becoming aware of the benefits of cheap EVs 😁

There were plenty of €3k, €4k Leafs about for many years up until about 6-12 months ago. Now you'd be lucky to find one for €6k. I paid a bit over €2k for my Fluence (also just a Leaf underneath) last summer. It's worth at least €5k now

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021210#Comment_119021210

Yea agree, great car when they suit your circumstances.