Prime Time housing debate: Eoin O Broin vs Darragh O'Brien

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627472#Comment_118627472

Calling out you hypocritical nonsense is not personal abuse or low blows, it is simply calling out hypocritical nonsense.

Don't take it personally. If you use this forum as a soapbox to preach the usual stuff, expect people to take you down when you can't explain the basics or get it very VERY wrong...

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628032#Comment_118628032

So you think private builds always stay on budget?

When drawing up a contract you can add penalties or bonuses around deadlines.

How come Micheal Martin said building our own is the way to go as its "the best value" and the councils will be doing it? Closet shinner? Is every other party bar FG shinner? Are all the housing experts who said the new policies will only make matters worse, shinners? You've shinners on the brain.

After answering a lot of questions don't you think its high time I got some answers? All I get is whatabout.

Show me, after a decade in crisis how buying en masse is cheaper than building en masse?

Who do developers build when they could buy? Why do investment companies and Darragh O'Brien invest in builds?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629030#Comment_118629030

So you've no ability to respond to questions other than attack with no substance. Somebody needs to relax.

steddyeddy

They need to put a rent cap in place. Otherwise this is going to get a lot worse. Supply won't come quick enough to mitigate the problems that will come down the road with the combined inflation, housing problem.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630424#Comment_118630424

They've been claiming the current policy is needed 'now' due to lack of supply for the last 10 years or so. It'll all end in tears and the general public will be blamed.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629428#Comment_118629428

No, they don't and they're actually incentivised to stay within budget and for the private builds the loss is on the developer, they only get the going market rate regardless of how much they spent on building it. And yes, you can add penalties and bonuses but that will just eat into any savings the LA is planning to make, you have literally described the problem you think public building is designed to solve.

Show me, after a decade in crisis how buying en masse is cheaper than building en masse?

What are you buying and from who, what does "en masse" mean, 10 or 100 properties? Start getting specific and give examples, throwing out nebulous questions doesn't get answers (and I notice you're still running away from providing one worked example of this in practice and still asking others to do the work for you for a solution you think will solve the housing crisis, pretty incredible to be claiming that while not having a single worked example eh?).

Who do developers build when they could buy? Why do investment companies and Darragh O'Brien invest in builds?

Because they have the expertise to build at a cost and sell it on at a profit/wages to themselves, the LA doesn't have that expertise so will instead be paying someone else that profit/wages while taking on the entire risk. Investment companies don't build themselves, they invest in people by providing capital hoping for a return, is this what you want the LA to start doing? How much capital should they start providing to provide developers and what return should the LA be looking for? (again, you're describing another one of the problems with the LA taking this on...)

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630749#Comment_118630749

Show me how buying 100 homes is cheaper than building 100 homes?

All you've done is talk about cost over runs. Yes bonuses and failure to meet penalties can be worked in to any contract. And you are right, if a private build runs over they can just add that cost to their market sale/asking price. So were is the saving for the buyer?

I'm not running away I'm point blank refusing. I have near a decade of crisis to show me polices in place aren't working.

Never claimed investment companies build. Yes they invest in builds expecting a profit from the sale. Yes I do expect the state to do similar only paying 100% and keeping the homes built. Micheal Martin/FF, SF, PBP, SD's and myself are in agreement. Building our own, council led, is the "best value".

The idea that nobody pays a developer to build for them is ludicrous. There are numerous Irish companies will build houses, bridges, office blocks and advertise it on their websites.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630749#Comment_118630749

Posters like that who only engage in soundbite debate don't like being asked for detail and back-up for their position.

He will continue to run away from providing one worked example of his idea in practice and retreat into soundbite and fake outrage of personal attacks.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630912#Comment_118630912

Which 100 homes? Where are we buying 100 homes now, to start a comparison.

Private cost overruns do not get added onto the asking price, I honestly think that's the single most telling thing you've said, that is not how the price of ANYTHING is determined in a free market.

animalinside

Determine fair maximum prices for developers and landlords and make it illegal to go beyond them. Noone should get to exploit the basic needs of others in a civilized society.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631140#Comment_118631140

So if I am selling a house I have to pinky swear I won't add a few grand to the sale price above what I'd planned? Its a sellers market.

This this the whole thing you are either ignoring or not getting. There's as much as it cost and as much as I can get. Sellers traditionally go for as much as they can get. We avoid that extra by building.

100 houses on council owned land, anywhere you like verses 100 on the market for sale properties. In the same region. Show me how buying is cheaper.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631091#Comment_118631091

'Always about the poster' isn't that what you claim? Pot meets kettle.

I literally spent days talking with this chap and others on this and here you are lying like I never. You've some cheek.

I'll take the rest of you slights with a wheelbarrow full of salt ;)

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631783#Comment_118631783

Actually, if you don't understand supply and demand economics, there's very little point in going any further.

Why doesn't a developer just add a few grand to the price if they go over their budget? Why doesn't everyone selling their house or car or tin of beans just add a few grand, we'd all be millionaires very quickly.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632174#Comment_118632174

Good man. Way to refuse to support your claims. I'll just let the never ending housing crisis prove my point.

People sell for as much as they can get. Be it a bag of spuds or a house. There is no 'fair' price set unless regulated. Thats were building would make savings. Buiding is were developers make their money, be it building for others or themselves.

Just because paschal and harris had their head up their arse on the NCH doesn't mean it can't be overseen properly by others.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632335#Comment_118632335

There was another reply written, but there's no point if the basics aren't understood.

But I have a question for you to answer.

Why doesn't every builder or developer put their prices up by €2000? Answer that honestly.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632698#Comment_118632698

Why is everything a game of chess? How do you know they don't? I'm telling you a fact that people sell houses for as much as they can get. You'd agree on that surely?

"honestly"? Just because you don't like my opinions doesn't make them lies.

Two options:

You buy off the market. A market heavily in favour of the seller were prices don't tend to drop but go up. An inflated market price way above the cost of building.

OR

You pay people/a developer to build for you. When a tender is submitted it includes a quote with costing. There may be over runs but you can work out a contract for such eventualities. It happens every single day of the week.

Developers build for other people all the time.

I'm done going over the same ground with you. All you do is try pick holes and avoid questions.

FullyComp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632798#Comment_118632798

"An inflated price way above the cost of building"

I don't think this is right tbh. Modern building methods are pretty expensive. There's not the level of margin you think, otherwise we'd be building way way more privately and all over the place

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632798#Comment_118632798

No one is avoiding questions, yet again we're at a place where your failure to understand simple economics makes it impossible for anyone to answer your question because either you don't understand the answer or you're pretending not to understand the answer because it blows iceberg size holes in a Sinn Fein policy. The only way to get it to the point where you can be answered is to start at the basics at which point you fly off on a tangent.

And I don't think anyone is missing the fact that not one worked example is being provided by the side who wants to implement the policy.

You need to acknowledge that you understand how prices get set in a free market economy and we don't just ask every seller to pinky swear to that effect. If that is impossible for you, say so.

No builder would sign a contract without a clause for higher input prices

They've gone up hugely in the last 2 years and rising

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632977#Comment_118632977

It is quite clear that the poster concerned has never been involved in any property or construction activity.

Even someone who had a guy in to build a wall would know that Irish builders are the best in the world at adding on over runs.

When it comes to doing work for a council, they know that due to the incompetence of the councils (something that I have referenced on here many times) that they will be able to squeeze a lot more out of them than selling on the open market.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118633693#Comment_118633693

I think it's more fundamental than that, it's the caricature of the entrepreneur deciding to raise prices because they're greedy vs. the "fair price for a fair days work" where everything is assigned a value and no more, how can you debate about what the price of something is in a free market when the other person is convinced that the free market doesn't exist and all prices are plucked from the air.

Of course those questions can't be answered because they're not rational questions to ask, might as well ask "how long does a train take" and proclaim I win when no one answers it.

But, as said previously, this is the SF policy, there is no numbers behind it, it just exists as soundbites where everybody gets what they want off the backs of the greedy capitalists until the vast majority of working people realize it's their backs.

The solution is supply, which means getting out of the way and letting builders build and developers develop, having a new player come into that market to build in the same locations just means slower supply (and higher prices if it's the LA trying to do so, then the tax payer takes the hit on their losses).

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632880#Comment_118632880

Fair point. The market price is inflated though. Our dependence on private enterprises means we meet whatever price they set. We add to individuals being priced out. This creates more people in need of affordable and social. Government policy is feeding the problem not fixing it.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118633624#Comment_118633624

Agreed. They'd set a quote with room for more funding. The contract would address such things. Its common practice. Always was. We pay professionals to build all kinds of things for us all the time.

If FF/FG were in opposition and the housing minister had investments in REIT'S half of ye would have a stroke but you don't even mention it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118633693#Comment_118633693

How on earth are you allowed carry on with this behaviour? Its attacking and baiting with no interest in discussion and its all that you do. If you want to address me have the nerve to do so directly instead of underhanded and inferred.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118632798#Comment_118632798

You pay people/a developer to build for you

How is that going with the new National Children's Hospital?

You automatically think that it's a given that if a LA or the State hires developers en masse to build houses for them that they wont be given the runaround......

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631564#Comment_118631564

This would only make things a lot worse.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118634907#Comment_118634907

Let's address this. Are you suggesting we build the NCH ourselves? Its the very people looking after housing policy currently are the very people organised the NCH.

You didn't think this through did you?

We already have PPP deals were we engage with developers and get rode. You didn't know this?

The NCH is an example of lack of oversight and incompetence carried out by the state/government. Its a great example of how money is no object but when it comes to building social we've no money and can't find builders. Try again. Actually don't waste my time.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118634647#Comment_118634647

That is not how the market price gets set, the "dependence" on private enterprises means they are in competition with each other to sell property, the solution is to increase the competition by getting more properties built, not slow it down by getting the LA in on the act or objecting to building developments. Unless you think there is an oligopoly at play with the developers agreeing with each other what prices to sell at (which is illegal). The price it costs them to build matters not one iota when the market price is set (which is why it will be a financial disaster for the LA).

And you're still avoiding the one worked example and verifying that you understand how prices get set, but that's fine, we assume there isn't an example and you don't understand and can move the discussion on.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118636352#Comment_118636352

The LA is in on the act. Who do you think is involved in PPP?

The housing market is skewed. The government are a big customer. The public gets priced out. We relied on hotels, b&b's and buying while building little. We did that for near 10 years. We've even bought property and sold it back at a loss through NAMA. 10 years in we still have people defending poor policy with 'lack of supply'. Wake up ffs. Its all going to plan.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118636514#Comment_118636514

The lack of supply is the issue. Whether the govt ultimately builds or private developers it doesn't matter, the supply is the issue.

And yes, current homeowners absolutely despise any new developments, which means on a local level all politicians are incentivised to join in in objections to any new developments and that is what they do. Just because the LA or the state are building it doesn't mean it won't need PP and that is where we are falling down every single time. Sure, SF pretend their objections are because it is not affordable housing, but the idea that affordable housing would be more popular locally is a farce.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118636677#Comment_118636677

It is and has been since we seriously dropped the numbers of social housing builds years and years ago. Immediate need for supply has been the driving factor for bad policy for a decade. When do we start building our own again?

We can only read what they say. If you think they are pretending cool.