DF Commission Report

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039706#Comment_121039706

Can that not be dealt with by benefit of allowances, like "at-sea-allowances" or "Shooting hazard pay allowances" or "family separation allowances" or some other such jiggery which most civil servants wouldn't be getting unless they hop on a UN tour?" That would leave the base pay scales unaffected.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039370#Comment_121039370

Are they? This has been getting worse throughout their time in government this time, and given their positions, they were ideally placed to push through some stopgap measures if not actually start pushing through ways to fix this, instead we get soundbites about how Recruitment must be stepped up with no actually effects.

I mean even now, we should be deep into deciding budgets for October, where the implementation plan would be needed, and instead we get another holding statement, and likely another missed year of investment.

mupper2

Delete, doesn't matter.

Grassy Knoll

Let’s see if Michael Martin has a backbone in the next few months …. as has been suggested sidestep the issue of pay via allowance’s- the guards have been making out like bandits for years on that basis …

Larbre34

The Guards got effed over on that front by FEMPI too and have yet to see full restoration.

Thats one of the reasons I wouldn't be optimistic about a load of compensatory allowances being set up to fill the gap.

In any case, public sector Unions and non-union representative groups alike are very wary about allowances after they were detonated the last time. The ask will be core pay and pension entitlements. As it should be.

roadmaster

Allegedly 2028 for the Radar which is not to bad when you consider Tender-Construction-Training-operations

https://www.thejournal.ie/detailed-defence-action-plan-irish-defence-forces-6179029-Sep2023/

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159477#Comment_121159477

Surely that comes with some very big question marks, I mean the clock is ticking on this government at this stage realistically, so unless we get a tender within 12 months or so, its likely to be punted to the next government and who knows what they decide. Same for the suggestion of refreshing the AC Helicopter fleet, is that to start in 2028 or be in service by 2028, cause if in service then again the tender should be starting relatively soon.

Still seems plenty "soft" to me with lots of HR speech and promises of future outcomes.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159575#Comment_121159575

Yeah it seamed very light and a rehash of what was said before . The detailed implementation plan still has to come in the coming weeks

roadmaster

With the budget next week will they have to release the implementation plan by monday to allow for how much they need from he budget?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192530#Comment_121192530

Its far too late for anything released to have an impact on the budget, whatever the DF gets has already been decided (most likely with little input by anyone who actually knows anything about the DF), why do you think it was kicked back so far?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192633#Comment_121192633

Yes was thinking that. You would also think that after last week with only 1 military helicopter availble to the state there would be alarm belts ringing

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193114#Comment_121193114

Sure the minister of defence has already said that everything was fine and everyone should stop moaning about any imagined shortcomings in the operation. Why would you need alarm bells?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193273#Comment_121193273

"Sure you did the job with what you had...in fact did you need 3 aircraft?"

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193496#Comment_121193496

And a ship, I mean talk about spare resources! That's almost waste, DPER might have to have another look at cutting costs...

And I wish that was a joke or just sarcasm.

sparky42

To be realistic, given when we are and the only thing that has been suggested is the report about the Sea Going Allowance going up, how low are people's expectations? 10%-20% below inflation increases? And straight up headline cut of budget? Selling off the Navy? Shutting Baldonnel as that's being blamed for noise around Dublin Airport??

sparky42

So the prebriefings of the budget are in hand already but I haven’t seen a single mention of anything defence related other than the comment from Berry regarding the Sea Going Allowance, so any bets on what we see? I mean it’s not like the world has got anymore unstable since the Commissions report…

sparky42

Feck all increase in the headlines from DPER.

Larbre34

€200 million headline increase and a specific target of 400 additional head.

Its not in line with a curve to achieve the LoA2 commitment, but we don't have the capacity to do that anyway, until the structures are in place.

This is almost entirely a management challenge for the next 2 to 5 years, not a money one.

jonnybigwallet

Fiddlers money I'd call it.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215674#Comment_121215674

Finance little to do with it, D/Per controls expenditure policy. Anyway on the budget strikes me commitments re advertising for 400 more staff - and poss MRV is delusional stuff.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221632#Comment_121221632

I think at this stage keeping mentioning the MRV is more an accountancy trick than anything else, if its supposedly in the Capital expenditure plan already and was circa €200 million, if they tell the truth and kill it, then the already lack of spending collapses into the pack of lies that it is.

RavenP

Genuine big question here. With the current government financial position and other departments getting above inflation increases, no one would have batted an eyelid at a couple of hundred mil extra for the DF. One has to ask why this has not happened. Is there one element of the government or civil service who have a particular dislike of the DF? Is there some kind of hangover from post-civil war politics going on? Or is there a bigger influence on government or alternatively fear of the PANA types than usually credited and are the government going to find additional funds from the unallocated two billion later on? Are the DF not structured to actually spend the money right now? Is there some organisational issue within the way the government or civil service that mitigates against spending on Defence?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221739#Comment_121221739

All of the above?

RavenP

@sparky42 I really do not know. If the public finances had been really tight in the run up to the election, I could understand other departments with very good reason squeezing defence, but this is the least tight spending round in a long time. The exasperation of Cathal Berry in the Dail yesterday spoke volumes. If the management issues in the DF were so bad that they could not usefully spend any increased money, then I imagine Berry would not have made the statement he did, almost suggesting he would support an alternative government after the election, by whom I presume he means SF. It might simply because they are afraid to addressing DF pay and conditions in advance of an election unless there is a cascade of other calls for money from other sectors. Berry was right to compare himself to David MacWilliams though. This is criminal negligence by the government at a time of such risk for Ireland.

mupper2

It's a fitting metaphor for the state of the DF that the day after the budget this forum is dead quiet because nothing was done...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225016#Comment_121225016

I suppose when the Part Time Minister can't even be bothered...

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-says-defence-forces-recruitment-targets-are-extremely-challenging-1538027.html

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225044#Comment_121225044

..

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225373#Comment_121225373

Boo **** Hoo, at this stage the Navy should just go for a full safety stand down and dare the Government to complain.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220334#Comment_121220334

I make it a less than 2% yo-yo increase from the 2023 allocation, about half the rate of inflation €21m - no more needs to be said.

The problem IMHO is at this stage there is hardly the capacity to absorb any spend so the money can’t really be given to Defence. Money for wages is allocated for men and women who are not there. we buy ships, they will rust at the quay wall for lack of key personnel to crew them, aircraft , we are limited to only small numbers of basic models as the more complex gear requires tech support we don’t possess or training / operational frameworks we are years away from. Army may be a little more different as the equipment is smaller and arguably less complex in scale. In all cases there has been a historic neglect as manifest in underequipment across all services, lack of investment as seen in crumbling facilities, poor pay and conditions.

it seems to be fair DoD is undergoing a gradual cultural change, albeit from a very low base. Furthermore the officials there traditionally did not ‘game’ the system as per Health, Housing social protection etc where money has gone literally on old rope. Instead they should be fighting to increase their budget etc , almost’ expand an empire’ rather than infighting with the military side. Also the transformation programme seems impressive on one level, a lot of structures etc which might serve the process well over the long term.

However, the key issue of pay and conditions is the elephant in the room and they are at nothing, zero, zilch until that is addressed. It is well over a year since the Commissions report was published - a very realistic and practical blueprint- except it didn’t get into the pay issue - it is alright to be delivering the report recommendations as a tick box exercise but the key horizontal enabler - pay - needs to be addressed swiftly and decisively - words with respect I wouldn’t associate with Martin or McGrath etc

Certainly if progress was made on this we could begin to see gradual improvements, probably never reach the full establishment level, but at least staunch the flow. Talk of high end radars at this stage, MRVs etc is pie in the sky - who will man them, they will prob rust away for lack of technical crew at this point. The point that militaries are highly skilled, technical organisations operating complex platforms still has not registered in my view.

I hope Dr Cathal Berry keeps it up, the man is a high achieving, high credibility individual with an elite military pedigree. He might well ask what good is he doing, but it would be worse in my view without his public contributions. The only criticism I would have is he is perhaps too reasonable. Helped by his interventions any informed, reasonable individual you meet has well absorbed the message that our defence is sub par and needs urgent attention. Martin is becoming rattled as seen by reports of his press conference.

Grassy Knoll

I see some commentary here is that the increase for 2024 is €55m = 21 current +34 capex extra - presumably taken as gospel from press releases etc. However, I would like to point out this is an accounting sleight of hand, from the published Budget expenditure report book p25 table D sets out that the original NDP capital allocation for 2023 was cut by 34m from 176m to 142m, (which is actually close to the 2022 capex outurn. So 2023 capex is to be flat y-o-y)

in effect all that has been done in the budget is this has been restored to 176m for 2024, so in net terms we are getting the original 2023 capital allocation a year late. There may be reasons for this (delayed equipment payment ?) however to present this as an increase is disingenuous. There was no effort to reallocate this to other defence projects. IMHO 2024 allocations should be compared to the original 2023 capital one as published in the REV which is the basis of voted government expenditure. All of this is verifiable by looking at some online docs - buried in plain sight of course.

so if we are to compare on a like for like basis, defence spend is actually only rising by 21m on the current side. Let there be some honesty on the figures please …

roadmaster

Rest at ease everything is in hand.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/83d6a-department-of-defence-and-defence-forces-strategy-statement-2023-2026/

Manic Moran

So I've scanned it twice... Does it actually say anything?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250957#Comment_121250957

Not really.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250957#Comment_121250957

They are still working on the detailed implementation plan which is at "Advanced stage". The same plan which was suppouse to ready at the latest of January 2023.

Its not like they need to rush or that there are any issues in the defence forces such as only 1 full strenght unit in the state whose troops are being sent from Bundorn to all over the country to cover duties. So nothing to worry about.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251748#Comment_121251748

So after the budget the “Implementation Plan” is reportedly finally going to cabinet and will be published, DOD and Finance will be happy about pushing things back another few years:

https://twitter.com/donlav/status/1719464048125735238

How low are the expectations?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308362#Comment_121308362

Will they propose to commision a report on how to implement the Implementation Plan?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308643#Comment_121308643

With a review as well into the report, and then perhaps a public consultation, and then maybe a panel to correlate the findings?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308729#Comment_121308729

Have we asked the AG if any of this is allowed by the Constitution?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308835#Comment_121308835

You forgot the vital trips to see how other countries do it, so junkets to Australia, Mexico, Spain, etc will have to be made

roadmaster

The year is 2026.

Sec Gen: Minister we are now able to put the plan in place.

Minister: Excellent when do we Start.

Sec Gen: Thats the problem the last service member finished up last week and we now have no Military.

MInister: Can the guards step in a form a paramilitary Unit like in Spain.

Sec Gen: Funny Story the Guards have all quit aswell the Justice Sect Gen tells me

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121309154#Comment_121309154

Oh you can't over burden them with too much hol...work....

roadmaster

Following on from sparkys post theres mention in the sun today about the plan but no details.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/11580171/ireland-defence-forces-plan-next-week-micheal-martin/

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121313938#Comment_121313938

Probably not leaking it because they are still typing it up and adding in bits

sparky42

Ah good, the DOD is to get an implementation management office to oversee the plan. Any bets on that being the only part of this that gets fully funded?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314004#Comment_121314004

Adding bits? More likely having DOD, DPER and Finance each pulling as much of it out as possible or at the very least trying to push any spending well into the future/never.

mupper2

The extremely frustrating thing is we can all see how more chaotic and dangerous the World is getting and will continue to get worse....but no these lads continue to think its 2000 and the good times will never stop.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316007#Comment_121316007

Hell, even then they missed 9/11 and everything that followed, I’m sure they figure the current situation is just minor. After all it would be a shame to break tradition, Dev and the Cabinet only figured out there were some “concerning tensions” in Europe in the Spring of 1939…

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317033#Comment_121317033

Look the person with the keys for the locked filing cabinet got transferred to Finance so the Department doesn’t even know what the 2000 WP said…

roadmaster

This Plan is going to be interesting considering the messing in AGS at the moment. Closing date for the No.2 job has being extended again but no AGS have applied because of the money issue. Dept of Fianance have said they are reviewing issue but review wont be complete untill summer 24!

Urgency is lost on this state no wonder the plan is nearly a year late

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/1104/1414563-deputy-garda-commissioner/

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121325010#Comment_121325010

She was supposed to be out the door in early December but they have got her to stay until March. Callans Kicks had a funny take on it last night