DF Commission Report

roadmaster

I am not sure if i heard this correctly but the commite said The Minister of state at Defence apperently has no power or input to Defence Matters

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666009#Comment_120666009

Yes, they deal with civil defence and inter-departmental matters like ATCP and emergency management.

Wouldn't be much point have a junior minister in a Department who did exactly the same thing as the senior minister.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666312#Comment_120666312

Except where the minister (also holding the Appointment of Taoiseach) decided to delegate all responsibility to the parish pump politician appointed to Junior Defence minister position to keep him out of harms way.

He answers all Oral PQs on behalf of the minister, he is interviewed by national media as if he is minister, his name is at the end of Press Releases from the DoD, not the minister, he is the de-facto minister, as was the case for the ten years when First Enda and then Leo were Taoiseach and minister for defence.

Larbre34

Well obviously. That particular downgrading of Defence was a massive mis-step, which is one of the factors that led to the situation we are in today.

Not to mention that some of the holders of the position, albeit downgraded, were useless.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666576#Comment_120666576

To be fair, even when it was a full minister position, the holders weren’t exactly brilliant at the job either, I mean who would be the last good to outstanding Minister for Defence?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666658#Comment_120666658

I'm reluctant to admit it, because it's the best of the worst, but Michael Smith, in my lifetime anyway. We got a lot done during his tenure. DPM uniforms, Panhard Upgrade, 2 ships for the navy (one they hadn't even asked for) Mowag Piranha APCs, Merc Gun Towing trucks, DROPS. Flycatcher, Casas, PC9M, The 1st White Paper on Defence, He also held the post for possibly the longest of all in recent years (not counting the junior post holders) at 7 years, or the terms of 2 Dail. He managed to back us out of a messy legal battle in the MLH competition, while being able to use the money for more armour instead of it going back to the exchequer.

Only Oscar Traynor held the post longer, and that was for the duration of the Emergency, where he succeeded in mobilising a huge army, equipping everyone with small arms, and being creative in finding means to equip the Air Corps with downed Allied aircraft, and building our own armoured vehicles. Mining the main harbours, and setting up a network of coastal Observation posts to monitor traffic in our waters. That was the last time the position was taken seriously. Ever since it has been a holding area for TDs who should be minister because of seniority or loyalty, but cannot be trusted with anything important, like health, finance or education.

Manic Moran

Listening to that committee meeting now, I'm intrigued that Senator Craughwell's commentary that the Kiwi vessels are considered not suited to task by people he's speaking to.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667624#Comment_120667624

Id be more worried that he is trying to imply it seams that the navy brass where not consulted about buying them in the 1st place. I hope he just misunderstood

jonnybigwallet

They always looked a bit feeble to me. Somebody's cast offs that were bought on the cheap. Should be OK for patrol duties in Dublin Bay!

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667716#Comment_120667716

I'm wondering if it was a case of "OK, Navy, you say you want two ships. There are two cheap ones here, it's them or nothing."

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667839#Comment_120667839

When i listened to the meeting a lack of drive and urgency seam to be missing

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667624#Comment_120667624

Just remember we saw some of the same type of comments from "sources" when we gave Aoife to the Maltese, even though the Maltese that were actually training on her in Cobh had none of the same concerns or issues and were actually a bit embarrassed bit the comments. They may well have issues, I don't know but unless the Senator has been talking to Kiwi's that have served on them down there I might have some questions?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667716#Comment_120667716

Just Craughwell talking a fair bit of shyte as usual, parroting the same contrarian spoof from the IT letters page by his PANA pal and aeroplane tamperer Edward Horgan.

Not only were they consulted, but they sent a project team to NZ to assess them.

They will be an excellent asset for inshore work, a particular capability the NS had always lacked in.

I'm incredulous at people who complain they won't do anything for our EEZ security, when clearly that is not what they are intended to be used for.

A flotilla with any ambition to become a capable Naval unit needs far more than one type of ship.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667624#Comment_120667624

Having knowledge of the process of procuring this vessel, and the highly qualified naval officers charged with selecting them and approving them for our use, I would love to know the rank of the Naval personnel the senator spoke to, and their qualifications to comment on this matter. We'll never know of course, as usual the senator trades in gossip.

The only real concern I have heard from people serving in the NS is that the unnecessary delays in the purchase, outside the control of the NS, meant more potential crew will have departed before they get a chance to go to sea.

In addition to that with the waves of ill informed commentary, on social media and from people like the senator, the DoD and DFHQ did not do enough to publicise the season the vessels were considered suitable.

The Facts are, the NZ navy withdrew them for their own political reasons, but retain 2 in service for inshore work, similar to the profile of operation the 2 vessels we purchased will undertake here.

To see a Senator publicly make a factually inaccurate statement based on hearsay is frankly, both unprofessional and unbecoming of the office.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/video-archive/committees/7887

Oddly no transcript exists as yet.

Grassy Knoll

The implementation plan is a serious piece of project management and to be fair in terms of comparable Government action plans has strong governance and design at its core. Julie Sinnamon is a fairly serious appointee also. However, away from all of this (which IMHO should serve the process well over the medium to long term) the political level ‘bread and circuses’ piece is lacking. Essentially this should be some fast forwarding of a decision on pay, allowances etc. There is a huge amount on getting proper structures in place etc which is all very worthwhile but I agree there need a bit of early momentum builders. I do feel a lot of the capital piece will come and I personally think a lot of the wider public now feel our defence capabilities are sub par. (Whether is is a level 3 support is another matter). Proof of this is Sinn Fein are now mainstreaming this as part of their policy - never a bandwagon missed by them ….

However, personally I do feel the 3k extra personnel is a pipe dream irrespective of what they do, with full employment and easier ways to earn a crust I think it will be an uphill battle- I will be glad to be proven wrong. The spectre of ships with no one to crew them or planes with no one to fix them etc is a real one and is one that will continue. The current men and women do a great job in services that have been starved of resources for decades. ‘Inflating that tyre’ so to speak will take years. Finally talk of Minister Smith- was he not just the person there for a fairly long spell when the proceeds for some barrack sales went through plus the Celtic tiger meant there was a few extra bob there. Apart from that it was notable as being fairly undistinguished…

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667826#Comment_120667826

You see, this type of nonsense is why I ignore 99% of your output.

Bigger than the Canadian Kingston class of Coastal Defence Vessels, which frequently cross the Atlantic to visit Ireland.

Bigger than the Ton Class minesweeper which did the same job in the 70s and 80s before the P40s came along

Bigger than the Belgian Castor class which frequently visit these parts.

Bigger than the Tripartite Class MCMV which are operated by France, Belgium and the netherlands, since the 1980sand also frequently visit here.

Double the size of the majority of trawlers that work off the west coast all year round.

Not Cast offs. Surplus to requirements of the NZ Navy for political reasons and if you follow sites similar to this in NZ you'l see the locals feel they could have been used by other agencies down there instead of selling them to us. NZ navy continue to use 2 of the type, as detailed in the latest issue of the NZ Navy magazine. Royal New Zealand Navy | Navy Today - Issue 275, April 2023 by New Zealand Defence Force - Issuu (Page 22)

So time to put this nonsense message to rest once and for all.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667980#Comment_120667980

The Defence forces have mentioned many many times they are for the east coast not the open atlantic something that people who are aganist them keep failling to mention

tippilot

I think a lot of the (ill informed) feeling that these vessels are somewhat sub par stems from the larger better armed vessels that they are supplanting.

Had these been acquired supplementary to existing capabilities rather than replacements for larger, better armed if by now well outdated ships there may not be the level of negativity. When rumours of the purchase began to circulate, they were mooted as East coast vessels required to deal with a consequence of Brexit. As the crewing crisis deteriorated, they are now being viewed as a way of getting more hulls in the water with the limited pool of sea going personnel.

Despite their welcome arrival it must be noted that with the tied up ships and now departed P31 and Peacocks, there is a large overall net loss in capability. that needs urgent attention.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669904#Comment_120669904

Larger? By 7m, the length of a Rigid inflatable boat.

Better armed? Perhaps, with a main gun that was unnecessary in any situation and like a Hilux with a Dushka, more likely to make the ship a target in a fight it was unable to finish.

UK and Other navies are fitting vessels of this size with 20 and 30mm cannon up front. The 76mm was a one off, intended to intimidate Hong Kong pirates originally in the 80s. People who think vessels of this size and role need to be heavily armed need counselling.

tippilot

7m shorter but less than half the tonnage. If we had built to a spec back then rather than making an opportunity purchase we probably would have ended up with something much more like the New Zealand boats anyway.

I wouldn't necessarily call the Peacocks "heavily armed", just more heavily armed. Look no further than the Swedish, Finnish and Danish Navies for squeezing guns and missiles onto sub 60m platforms. Suggested counselling may reveal some residual Viking tendencies are to blame.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671016#Comment_120671016

Different operating environment than those of us operating in the Atlantic. Their main armament isn't going to be covered in green sea most of the time.

sparky42

This may be a stupid question (wouldn’t be my first), but when they wheel out the line about the radar procurement and talking about “ground based, maritime, and primary” are they talking about refits for the ships or land based coastal radar?

Larbre34

Sounds like a reasonable question that needs clarification.

My assumption has been that as part of a system wide upgrade, on top of ground based primary radar, that the P60s at least would be upgraded to the maximum of their capability vis-a-vis radar air surveillance.

roadmaster

I not sure what the planning permissions come under for the construction of the Radar stations where they are put weather its a Part 8 or simlar.

But could the planning process be bypassed in the name of the so called National security that are leaders are using so much lately to answer questions

tippilot

The P60's are from my understanding fitted for but not with an Air Search radar. So a retrofit is technically feasible.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671842#Comment_120671842

Part IV of the Defence Act basically let's the Minister for Defence do whatever he likes regarding the acquisition, occupation and development of any land for the purposes of national defence.

In practice, the Department may produce an environmental report in respect of non-sensitive development which leaves out a lot of operational info, but it's not required.

Technically the Minister can have erected on any public land, or by the compulsory purchase of private land, air defence radar of any extent, if the location and the ground conditions are suitable. But most likely they will be co-located with existing civilian radar and other locations to minimise impact.

mupper2

You know looking at it, if they don't get the finger out equipment wise alone, we're going to be at the end of a lengthy line timeframe wise after everyone else. You can see it already from aircraft, to UAV, UUV, radar systems etc etc, all the orders going in around Europe for stuff we'll also need. There is only so much manufacturing capacity to go around for this.

Larbre34

There is, but many of the big players will be expanding that capacity and national governments will be incentivising the investment in it, for their own economic benefit.

I wouldn't be too concerned about lead times on the sort of stuff we need.

Its a shortage of smart weapons and heavy artillery rounds that are causing the bigger headaches, neither of which will concern us greatly.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687671#Comment_120687671

I’d mostly agree but not entirely, I mean for example Germany is reportedly sourcing extra Boxers from the Australian line for extra numbers, or for example the order book for the CV 90 filling up. While there’s huge areas that we to invest in that wouldn’t really touch the big ticket items, there is likely to be some issue well into the next decade on production/supply chains as nations play catch up.

Larbre34

I guess that's an issue for everyone seeking high quality metals and electronic components generally. Fortunately are at the tail end of that queue and are really only gaining access to shite, if anything.

In other news, the Head of Transformation has been appointed to the senior defence staff, which is an important step.

While the article doesn't give much detail, I did have a look at Mr Molloy's CV elsewhere and he does seem to have decent experience of strategic and organisational change management. Let's hope he has the resolve to penetrate 'the blob' that is the defence sector hierarchy in Ireland. He will need it.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-defence-forces-brian-molloy-6087024-Jun2023/