DF Commission Report

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122712999#Comment_122712999

We have the chiefs, but they aren't in the chain of command which goes from the White House to the Combatant Commanders, they are off to the side and don't command any operational forces. If the President says "I want the Air Force to bomb Syria", the chain of command goes from him to the Secretary of defense to (Army) General Kurilla down in Florida who is the CentCom commander. If he wants move an armored brigade from Korea to Taiwan, it goes from Biden to Austin to Admiral Paparo, the IndoPacCom commander. And so on. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs will probably be aware of it just because he's likely in the room when the decisions like that are being made and maybe he's given some advice, but he isn't in the loop and does not need to be told.

I guess the Irish equivalent would be something like the Taoseach would tell MG Anthony McKenna do do something, not LTG Clancy.

The service chiefs are in effect responsible for the administrative running of the organisation. Making sure the right people are in the right places at the right times with the right equipment and the right training and properly supported.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122713066#Comment_122713066

If you look at the Nordic Nations or New Zealand that appers to be the new managment system we are heading for so the current Army want to have as much influence as they can.

The problem with the new system also is that the Sec Gen of the DoD will still control the purse strings unlike in AGS were the commisoner controls the purse strings.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122715671#Comment_122715671

do you even know whats in the Commissions report?

source

Brand new account, with only posts on this topic... Don't feed it folks.

source

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716744#Comment_122716744

You have a thread to discuss the topic, this thread is on the implementation of the CoDF report. Pulling this thread off on a tangent on whether or not UN peacekeeping should exist is not adding to this conversation. Trying to move every thread onto the same topic is a trolling move as old as trolling. 🤷

RavenP

it is fair to discuss the UN and peacekeeping missions. I am not sure there is much peacekeeping hubris in the DF, lots of service men have died and dangerous incidents are not uncommon. The IDF may engage Irish peacekeepers, but it would be risky for them on two counts, one because it risks weakening US support at a critical point, and perhaps even influencing an election, two, as Cathal Berry said on TV a few nights ago, the Irish are far from defenceless. In reality they would probably be the most competent force the Israelis would have engaged in a long time and if a few Israeli tanks got knocked out the Israeli aura of invincibility could take a knock at a delicate time in their “war”. Either way engaging the Irish would be a risky strategy with no real advantage to be gained for Israel. On the wider point the UN has a problem, it is hamstrung by the permanent members of the Security Council, all of whom want to limit its power and remit.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717276#Comment_122717276

Javlins can make quit the impression if needed

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717985#Comment_122717985

Well, I can front-seat moderate. New posters with unpopular takes are routinely viewed with some suspicion here, I can understand his reaction. Anyway, official hat on.

[Mod]There is a nice shiny new UNIFIL thread going on over here. Move talk of the operations of the UN in Lebanon here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058372506/unifil-mission-imperiled-middle-east-conflict-oct-24

More philosophical questions get to go here. (I may yet merge the threads)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058374195/is-it-time-to-disband-the-un-peacekeepers

The Commission on the DF is a resourcing report. What the DF needs to do its job. Involvement with the UN on a general basis and Irish resourcing with future peacekeeping in a more broad sense is within the scope of this thread, the Report points out that LOA 2 would allow the Irish military to "serve in higher intensity peace support operations." LOA 3 would "allow for deeper engagement in international peace and humanitarian missions." Discussion of UN missions within this context of resourcing is fine for this thread.[/Mod]

And official hat off:

The definition of 'higher intensity' isn't given. It could mean 'greater numerical resources required' or it could mean 'more likelihood of combat involvement'. I suspect, given the Irish context, it means the former, a greater ability for Irish troops to be in more 'hot spots' at the same time.

sparky42

So the Working Time Directive might be in place by the end of the year, maybe… assuming no general election or just general slippage…

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41496536.html

roadmaster

So we are well in to Q4 of 2024 and the following should be done:

• High level military Intelligence staffing
• High level army design - they have already said they are behind on this
• Defence forces estates review
• Apprentice school needs
• ATCP review - Underway
• Reserve forces - Underway
• Cyber- Underway
• Armour- Hard to say
• Naval Fleet replacement- IPVs & MRV?
• Radar- order should be in according to plan
• Anti UAV system- order should be in according to plan.
• Extra helicopters order should be in- apperently it is and is the H145

Just some of the items that should be done according to the November 2023 plan. The next update from the DOD is due and that should tell a tale or two.

sparky42

Well, we are in the final days of the government, the Daíl is rushing through the bills the government wants passed (anyone rate the chances of the WTD getting done in the next few days? Yeah right), and after that we are into the election and horse trading as to what is the new government.

Can’t really see any of those areas getting progressed until the new year at this point at best, or at worst very long fingered depending on the make up of the next government.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122757510#Comment_122757510

It seems to me that a fair bit of that list is all dependent upon #2. Not much point in recruiting reservists or reviewing property if there is a lack of guidance as to what it's all supposed to be supporting, in case they end up recruiting the wrong type or selling the wrong property.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122758712#Comment_122758712

The problem there is you have the war between the 3 branches of the defence forces and than you have the war within the army itself of whos corps will be top dog and who gets to be over the army espcially with a lot of the older leadership getting ready to cash in there pensions.

Larbre34

The Minister for Defence in the next government must absolutely stamp on that sort of nonsense carry on.

The people elects the government. The government designs the defence forces. Its that simple.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122763692#Comment_122763692

And every military that has more than one branch has the same internal feuding and fighting, whether it’s the U.K. forces every time there are “reviews” or the “revolt of the admirals” in the US post WW2, or even the internal battles that have been fought here over the years.

im not sure how you would go about stopping it?

Larbre34

I've always been a fan of the Ruairí Quinn approach myself.

In the aftermath of Veronica Guerin's assassination, he and Nora Owen convened a meeting of the senior brass of the Departments of Finance of Justice, of which they were respectively in charge.

They outlined to the attendant mandarins the concept of the Criminal Assets Bureau and how the government wanted suitable draft legislation and operational plans to bring before the Oireachtas and create the Bureau within the shortest possible timescale....

Myself and Nora sat down with this group of about 14 different officials from different government departments, including members of the gardaí and a senior official in the Department of Justice.

“Nora said a few words and then I said a few words. The assistant secretary said, ‘Well, thank you very much, minster. We are now going to start our deliberations, and if we come to the conclusion that new measures are necessary and we have to do other things...’

And at that stage I just f**king exploded.

“I said, ‘You haven’t heard what we said. We are going to f**king do this and you are going to make it happen. And, incidentally, if you can’t make it happen yourself, we’ll get someone who will because this is not going to happen again.’”

And so it is my belief that the new government should, in short order, legislate for the CHoD and the force re-org, then sit down every general staff officer, flag, brigadier and GOC, and the Sec Gen, and tell them, "this is f**king well happening; its happening now, and if we hear of any blow back or dragging of feet emanating from YOUR command, your f**king future in contention for the expanded command structure of these Defence Forces will be in serious f**king jeopardy".

roadmaster

3 weeks untill the end of this current government no major annoucments on purchases or plans has been inacted as put forward by the commission!

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122809588#Comment_122809588

We'll be in WWIII and they'll dub it "The Incovenience"

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122809588#Comment_122809588

Why would there be, when they'll be on the battle buses to Cobh or Galway or Athlone or Newbridge or wherever, to make an easy promise thats already funded?

Come on man, don't be that naive about how election campaigns work.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122809858#Comment_122809858

I’m not sure that really works if the promise goes “yes we have had 3 GE since we suggested we would buy a new ship, but honestly this time if we are elected we honestly will!”

I mean now that we are finally into the campaign effectively it will be interesting to see what if anything is said about defence, but I’m firmly in the “pull the other one” about the idea that there is a glut of order announcements/promises just waiting for the campaign.

Larbre34

Yes, but, you are deeply knowledgeable about the topic.

Most of the voters, as we've bemoaned on here often, don't have a notion about defence issues, including investment. It would be easy enough to repackage stuff thats already in the public domain and announce it as new investment/opportunities for whatever local constituency.

I mean look at the sports capital grants at the beginning of the week. These things are an entirely cynical exercise.

roadmaster

The poor cllr must of missed the part about ATCP and the defence forces in the report.

https://www.oceanfm.ie/2024/11/20/calls-for-more-resources-to-be-pumped-into-irish-defence-forces/

roadmaster

Should an an of year update be due from the DoD on what been done so far on the report and were they are?

Larbre34

Lol, you poor naive soul.

roadmaster

According to the mirror this morning the order for the mowag and the outrider replacements will be going in shortlty. Another direct order i presume like the H145. If this order is going in shortly that may suggest the redeisgn of the army is close.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046464#Comment_123046464

Good to see if true, but not going to mean much if the personnel issues aren't fixed.

Larbre34

You're right of course Sparky, but in a now crisis situation, it all must be addressed in parallel. The lead times for all this machinery gives a window for increased recruitment to take place in the meantime.

And not just recruitment, but advancement into specialist roles from within the 3-star cohort, to begin filling all the shortages in technical positions that have filled the headlines.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123048071#Comment_123048071

hey I’m all for getting orders signed off on (wondering/hoping if the NS a might get some love since the AC and Army have/will), and certainly the lead times have to be taken into account. But the specialist roles have to be addressed with a hell of a lot more attention than we’ve seen.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123046950#Comment_123046950

In the Article it said the runners for the new cars are the Pirrana V, Boxer and the Griffon.

@Manic Moran had mentioned he had spoken with a cav officer and they said they felt the likes of boxer was to big for here. So you could easily see the Griffon ticking the boxes with its size and protection level and it also has a sister in the jaguar which i am sure the cav would love.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123048651#Comment_123048651

as I said elsewhere, buying a bulk order from the French would certainly be something to be considered, I mean hell we know they would give us good terms and it couldn’t hurt given some of the current views on our position.

Larbre34

The talk is about the armour contract being signed in about 2 months, for about half a billion over 4 years.

I feel the Scorpion trio are too complex and unproven solution for our needs, and yes Boxer is one enormous SOB serving NATO frontline units.

I think the order will most likely be to GDELCS, for 80 Piranha V's and 20 Eagle V's in 4x4 initially.

There is already a deep working relationship with Mowag/GD and these types would mean a much smoother transition to the next gens. Also Eagle is available in 6×6 and has a SoF mothership variant coming, to further consolidate from platforms like ACMAT, the Fords etc.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123048937#Comment_123048937

If I had to put a tenner down, it's on VBMR Griffon and Jaguar. Kindof the same way the Belgians have gone, for much the same reasons, trying to get a good NATO-compatible combat capability for reasonable money in an organisation which has no tracked vehicles. Of course, watch as cheap Bradleys come available and the DF snatch them up.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123053030#Comment_123053030

Have you seen the Griffon and Jaguar in person yet?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123053030#Comment_123053030

OH come on, you know we’d manage to screw up buying American if we tried…

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123053063#Comment_123053063

I have not, so I don't have much of an opinion on them.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123052993#Comment_123052993

what you are saying makes sense. However, are the numbers you mention enough, are they replacement over a number of years rather than additional vehicles ?

mupper2

The solid RUMINT (take it as you will) is that the 400/100 figures are on the conservative low end of what's planned..