DF Commission Report

Grassy Knoll

It certainly will be interesting to see what way Deputy Cathal Berry votes in the SF motion of no confidence tomorrow - he has explicitly linked his support for the Government to what is announced. I presume he has good linkages to the military in terms of what Command thinks is achievable / desirable. However, Level 2 is only a basic level of capability - Level 3 is where we should be at, albeit we are some distance off. Even at the costed €3 billion, this is a relatively modest medium-term outlay in the context of >€100 billion of projected spending by the overall Government sector in 2023.

As I see it, apart from neutrality and some of the associated red herrings, we are a wealthy country that benefits massively from EU membership and global trade. Accordingly, we need to play our part as good global citizens, be it peacekeeping / enforcement, defence of the EU (cyber, Med Operations, piracy off Africa, drug interdiction, patrol of our territorial seas, [inc. safeguarding what lies beneath e.g. tel/comm link] and policing of our skies). This is way before we even get to discussing boots on the ground to assist neighbours who share our values and interests, or even further again, NATO membership. Make no mistake a safe, stable and prosperous EU and international order is in our vital strategic national interest - anyone who says anything to the contrary is talking unmitigated Bravo Sierra!!

While we will never be a massive military power, nor should we be - talk of taking-on the Russians etc is a completely false equivalence. However, we can afford and should be able to provide some level of self sufficiency to defend our own basic national interests as we seek to define them.

Personally, I can't abide freeloaders or hypocrisy, and I think it is time we displayed some degree of national self respect. I feel most right minded citizens who understand the issues rather than listening to a myopic, insular perspective, would agree.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322702#Comment_119322702

You can't capitalise current expenditure at Departmental level, without express consent from DPER, because again, it demonstrates bad management at operational level.

Believe it or not, many of the failures to deliver programmes in the Irish public sector, is because of the lack of discretion locally. And the reason for that is because of the Pig's mickey that was made with projects at local level over many years.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322495#Comment_119322495

Then ringfence it so it can be carried into the following year until an average spend of €500m extra per year over 10 years is achieved.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119323044#Comment_119323044

The only way to ringfence it, is to capitalise it and I explained above what a problem that is.

The exchequer budget is a pretty transparent process (though involved and boring) for a reason. It absolute does not tolerate Empire building or the creation of large discretionary funds.

Like every other Department, Defence has to rely on the political commitment to its resourcing on an ongoing basis. That's where the longterm fight will be.

roadmaster

The DOD and the defence forces will know fairly early on in the year if they can spend the allocated money if they cant they should have a plan B,C,D etc. Use it on infastructure build or if it so is buy an extra couple of transits but what ever they do they should not be returned.

I know of one department in particuar which would hire offices they wont use to make sure they spend the allocated funds

Dohvolle

There are quite a few projects in the DF on hold pending the outcome in Cabinet tomorrow. All the projects have stalled because their next step involves commitment to cash.

There are quite a few big ticket items required to reach LOA2, and the lead time for these is quite long. Armoured vehicles and army transport was flagged as insufficient, so replacing the Mowags (and the other pieces of crap) with more of something better armoured. When we bought the mowas almost 20 years ago each one cost a Million. By the time we got the last of them, they were 2 million each. In 2018, Romania was paying 4.5m each. Giraffe radar and RBS70 replacement That won't be cheap because CoDF has said we need something better, so expect longer range SHORAD and associated GBAD radar, for example Truck or Hagglunds mounted IRIS-T and associated radar. National Coastal radar surveillance(that's a consultant report, I can smell it from here). The forever delayed MRV (15 years now by my calculation since it was first proposed.) If that was to commence tomorrow (it won't) we are talking about 50m extra per year for the next 5 years minimum. Additional Medium Lift helis: An AW139 retails for about €25m per aircraft (based on the polish deal). Tactical transport aircraft? A Bare C295 could set you back about €45m each. All these projects need to commence ASAP, and each one will need initial down payments.

These things need to be progressed immediately. And that is without considering the infrastructure that would need to be built to house certain items. As well as the buildings required for the extra personnel to be recruited.

jonnybigwallet

Not a very exciting slug of money to go a very long way. I remember a mate of mine in the DF said that they called the Mowags "bullet magnets"

roadmaster

I see in times today one of the recommendations was to have the Military Police a seperate joint body. There was big push back from the senior managament. Whats the issue there?

donvito99

The Journal's headline of "€8bn defence proposals" is almost as bad as the comments underneath.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324753#Comment_119324753

The MP unit on a military facility is not standalone, and struggles to get past local politics. Theoretically, if an Inf Lt Col tells the Lieutenant in charge of an MP unit to investigate, or not investigate something, the MP Lieutenant has no chain of command outside that unit to consult with, as they answer to Logs under the new structure.

In the past there was a clear line from each MP Coy to the Provost Marshal, who was a colonel.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324346#Comment_119324346

Every armoured vehicle is a bullet magnet.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325053#Comment_119325053

Disgraceful clickbait headline from the journal.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325678#Comment_119325678

Because that never happens in the Journal…

roadmaster

Taken from RTE

"Today's decision should enable the defence forces respond to an attack on Irish sovereignty."

It must be some primary radar if it can not only see but take action. Have i missed something are we getting Gripens?

jonnybigwallet

Err. I think that must be the case.... remember I posted a few days ago that there was a squadrons worth going free from Jonny Swede?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326532#Comment_119326532

The small print is an attack, by land, by a small force of paratroopers without any vehicles or anti armour weapons... from a small independant island with no major military powers supporting them...

Larbre34

Make no mistake, the primary concern and priority for improvement is cyber vulnerability and intelligence / counter-espionage.

I would suggest that the next greatest vulnerability is sub-surface.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326861#Comment_119326861

So what you are saying is we need a premptive strike on Tory Island. Id say between the 105s firing from the beach near Falcarragh and the 76mm on the becketts we should be able to take them out

jonnybigwallet

Bring it on! A nation once again!

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327443#Comment_119327443

Only if we can crew the becketts....

Dohvolle

The standard of reporting on today's decision is very poor and causing some disquiet.

I look forward to hearing all the finer details at the press conference tomorrow.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328776#Comment_119328776

Among whom is it causing disquiet?

I've heard some reticence from RACO who have concerns about the effective rate of pay and allowances for junior Officers as compared to NCO instructors, which is fair enough.

But the usual commie bullsh1t out of PBP is the sort of thing that should be ignored, as always.

Contributions from the likes of Labour have been fairly constructive.

roadmaster

All i can say is God Bless Mary Lou and her crew. Thanks to her antics with a motion that was never going to pass all attention was diverted from the increase and will be forgotten tomorrow and defence forces can start to rebuild. Hardly a word in the media a great way to do it

Larbre34

I disagree Roadmaster. This is Day 1 of a 10 to 20 year battle for hearts and minds.

Defence will without doubt need to re-justify itself every budget time.

A citizens assembly on future defence policy is likely before this Government ends its tenure. Certainly, there will be another White Paper to reinforce new policy thereafter.

Rather than try and slide this stuff through as quickly and quietly as possible, its going to be necessary to force Joe Public to engage on defence and security matters more directly than they ever have before, or knew they needed to.

While 30+ years of The Troubles largely marginalised the Defence Forces from public life, the challenges facing all of Europe and the World, will put their fortunes much closer to the centre of both policy and public awareness.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329139#Comment_119329139

On the contrary, RTE treated us to file footage of all 3 branches, a quick few words from minister which seemed to cause confusion to those who were unaware of the CoDF (on twitter I see people asking "what commission?) followed by a rant from PBP about how when there is a crisis in homelessness, instead the government is throwing billions at militarism bringing us closer to EU army blah blah.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329168#Comment_119329168

The troubles did irreparable damage to the defence forces in the public eye.

All along the army were a frequent sight to joe public, guarding the cash outside the bank. Manning checkpoints on the border. Then some of them would go off foreign and come home with a tan, you might see it on the news if one got killed.

Then they stopped doing the cash, and the people used to seeing them in this role assumed now they had nothing else to do, except go overseas and come home with a tan.

Unless you lived in an army town, this was your only experience of the defence forces outside of the Local FCA unit marching on Paddys day. And sure they didn't have guns anyway.

We have a population of over 4m today, and a DEFENCE FORCE (not just army) of just over 8500. Thats one soldier, sailor or airman for every 470 people. There is one teacher for every 26 people. Unless you live in a town with a barracks, or have an interest in this area, or one of those members of the DF is related to you (and your 469 other relatives) they are not in the public consciousness.

The Navy will look for new ships and you'll see all over social media "I never knew we had a navy...I thought the song from the dubliners was a joke... do we still have those ships?"

The Air Corps, even in the media are still considered part of the Army, when they refer to an "Army Helicopter" or "Army spotter plane" or "government jet".

And if we are invaded in the morning, sure we'll just wage a guerrilla war against the invader, same as granda did during the Civil war.... he was in the Cumann na mBan apparently....

Dohvolle

REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON DEFENCE FORCES

The Commission on the Defence Forces published its report on 9 February 2022.

For access to the Report of the Commission on Defence Forces, please use the following link:

Report-of-the-Commission-on-Defence-Forces.pdf (size 5.8 MB)

The High Level Action Plan for the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces was published on 13 of July 2022.

For access to the The High Level Action Plan, please use the following link:

High Level Action Plan for the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces. 

donvito99

Has there been any specifics on the breakdown of future current expenditure, i.e. what proportion is on pay and what is on capex?

Pay is the only real development here IMO, as the capex is just going to pay for the things (MRV, radar which has gone from 10m to 200m?, Etc) already planned but never actually materialised.

Dohvolle

No.

The HLAP seems to suggest that from now to December the foundations will be laid, after which you are into putting forward your proposals for the 2024 defence budget, at which point more specifics would come through.

Theres a lot of memos, meetings, missed meetings, powerpoints and counterpoints to get through first.

Just looked at HLAP. First impressions are that a lot of low hanging fruit are picked off immediately and they have to be: inclusion, culture etc. Some pay issues and HR issues being addressed. Pretty much what was expected around airlift. There’s a lot is organisational reset and all the big ticket items are “revert to govt”.

Given the state of collapse of the DF and the need to put in foundations it can be described as a start. If it’s progressively implemented and backed by money and political clout it might get there. I still see the politics I saw: a desire to have a DF with a bit more capacity to keep the UNSC seat rolling around, a desire to maintain dependency on the UK, a desire to do a bit more to keep the EU and in particular the Eastern Europeans off the govts back, a failure to put the Defence of the state front and centre with real urgency. The battle over “vision” for the DF will tell a tale.

Like the multiple divorcee marrying again, I live in hope but the triumph of hope over experience rarely ends well