Aodhán Ó Ríordáin wants to ban single sex schools

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608446#Comment_118608446

From decades of experience in education at primary, secondary and third level, social work, community work and working in the private sector, from talking to people and interviewing people for employment and knowing their educational background. That’s how I come to the conclusion that there’s a different culture in single-sex schools than there is in mixed-sex schools, where in single-sex schools are more competitive, and mixed-sex schools are more cooperative.

I don’t think students supporting, motivating and driving each other in terms of academic or sporting achievements only happens in single-sex schools, I know it happens in mixed-sex schools too, but the approach and application in single-sex schools is from a more competitive perspective, whereas in mixed-sex schools the focus is more on cooperation.

I was educated around girls? Did you not read the part of my post where I referred to having had many friends who were girls when I was in school? I certainly don’t feel I missed out on anything if that’s what you mean? There’s no question I’d have had a completely different life had I been educated in a mixed-sex school, but whether I’d have done better or worse for myself though is something nobody can know with any certainty as every individual is different.

I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that some children don’t thrive in single-sex schools, and some children don’t thrive in mixed-sex schools. When it came to my own child’s education though, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - turns out it doesn’t, but that seems like a rather obvious point to make. I expect it would be understandable that I would prioritise my own child’s education over the education of children who aren’t mine. It’s up to those children’s parents how they choose to educate their own children.

The only thing I do know with any degree of certainty is that most parents or guardians will do their best within their means for their own children’s education, regardless of the outcomes of national and international surveys and studies and all the rest of it, so this idea -

Honestly, in the future we'll all look back on this and segregating children based on gender to educate them differently will be viewed just as absurdly as all the other absurd reasons that were once used to keep different children apart.

People have been saying the same thing for generations across different societies and cultures, and people have been arguing the opposite for just as many generations. I don’t particularly view either the choice of education in single-sex or mixed-sex schools as absurd or anything else, it’s simply a question of parents making choices for the education of their own children and really not giving a fiddlers for what Aodhán has to say on the matter.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608643#Comment_118608643

What sort of experience do you have of mixed sex schools?

This single sex is competitive, mixed sex is cooperative, can you please elaborate on what this actually means?

I too interview extensively in the private sector, both graduate level interviews and industry hires. I can tell you now, the school someone goes to as a child makes no difference whatsoever. It is completely irrelevant. I would genuinely find it very amusing if anyone ever thought they were getting an advantage because they had a particular school, or a particular type of school listed on their CV (I would find it a bit weird to see someone list their school history on their CV in the first place).

You weren't educated around girls if you went to an all boys school. I would think that is fairly obvious.

With regard to your own child, it is impossible for you to know if the single sex is making any difference whatsoever. Your child will never be educated in mixed sex, so you have absolutely nothing to compare to. What you have now is confirmation bias. Your child is doing well, your child goes to a single sex school, you have decided that your child is doing well because they go to a single sex school. You cannot back this up, it would be impossible. For all you know, your child could be doing even better in a mixed sex environment, you'll never know.

magicbastarder

I could give you a load of reasons, but really it came down to having been educated in an all-boys environment myself, and I did well for myself out of it, I wanted the same for my son.

those of us who went to all-boys schools will probably just repeat that our own experiences were reflective of the concept, but there are so many variables at play. i know that of about six friends i've stayed in contact with from school, who were approached by the school for marketing purposes 15-20 years after we went there, all answered 'no' to the question 'would you be willing to send your son here'. but that was probably to some extent down to the chap in charge of the school when we were there.

but again, you could easily argue that my particular group of friends won't be a representative slice through the school population.

anyway, point being - very few people are going to be able to contribute to this argument meaningfully with an 'i went/didn't go to a single sex school and my experience was negative/positive' because we don't have a meaningful comparison to make. we can't say we'd have been better off with the alternative because we didn't experience it.

AllForIt

I went to a mixed sex secondary school. No idea what the point of single sex schools are, though I haven't really though about it much. I certainly can't think of any negatives of mixed schooling at all. In fact I took one of the 'girls' subjects, 'Home Economics'. I took it for the cooking element rather than anything else. That can't do anyone any harm, especially in this day and age that most people can't seem to cook even basic things leading people to eat bought processed crap that is a major cause of obesity.

However I heard there are also moves to have 'gender neutral toilets' in mixed sex schools. No idea what would be the positives of that.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2022/0204/1277924-colaiste-eamann-ris/

As long as mixed sex schools aren't a 'progressive' idea but more based on common sense, then okay, the idea has my support.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608680#Comment_118608680

Yea people like to stick with what they had.

I think this is even more prevalent in the big private schools, cause "tradition" and all that.

magicbastarder

yep, ours was a mixed day and boarding school, and there were quite a few boarders who were there because it was a family tradition. some struggled.

however, teasing out whether they struggled because of the boarding aspect, the school itself, because it was single sex, whether it was a personality issue... not possible on a case by case basis, certainly.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608683#Comment_118608683

We were forced to do Home Economics until aged 14.

To be fair it wasn't bad. It was a 2 hour class on a Friday that was basically baking something every other week, so you'd be going home with bread or a tart or something.

Looking back, it was a really weird subject. Feels outdated.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608699#Comment_118608699

I doubt anyone really struggles by going to a single sex school, I wouldn't see it as damaging them or anything like that. I just find it a weird concept. A totally pointless way of dividing children up for no reason and no real benefit.

IMO state education should be mixed and it should be secular. Private schools can do whatever they like.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608664#Comment_118608664

You initially asked what I thought was a reasonable question and I answered it in good faith. You clearly aren’t satisfied with my answer and all I can say to that is tough titty. I answered your question fairly the first time.

It’s obvious from the context in which I said it, what I meant in saying that single-sex schools have a culture which is more competitive in terms of academic and sporting achievements. It was in contrast to mixed-sex schools which have a culture more focused on cooperation - they’re different philosophies and approaches to education.

Of course you can tell me what you consider relevant or irrelevant, it doesn’t change what I consider relevant or irrelevant. That much should definitely be obvious, as obvious as the fact that just because I was educated in an all-boys school doesn’t imply I was cloistered away in a monastery - I mentioned a number of extracurricular activities and sports where the girls from the Presentation would come to support the teams at sporting events, and of course there was Foróige and Comhaltas. You’re welcome to consider them irrelevant, but I consider them an important aspect of a young person’s personal and social development which is part of their education (as opposed to the idea that the only way children receive an education is in a school setting).

Your last paragraph I totally agree with. It’s why I led my answer to the question with the following -

I could give you a load of reasons, but really it came down to having been educated in an all-boys environment myself, and I did well for myself out of it, I wanted the same for my son.

It’s absolutely confirmation bias, and when he’s doing well as he is, I have no reason to question whether he could or should be doing better, I’m satisfied that he is thriving already. I’m not particularly keen to use my own child as anyone else’s social experiment. I’m sure you can understand that much, whatever else you deem relevant or irrelevant by your own standards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608721#Comment_118608721

A totally pointless way of dividing children up for no reason and no real benefit.

I don't know why posters keep saying things like this. Single-sex schools are generally better for students in terms of learning. The vast majority of research on educational outcomes point to singles-sex schools being better, and that schools changing to co-ed from being single sex, actually negatively affect the performance of both boys and girls.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/single-sex-top-of-class-with-college-success-37751540.html#:~:text=Single%2Dsex%20schools%20outperform%20mixed,after%20sitting%20the%20Leaving%20Cert.

Or search google for single-sex schools outperform, and you'll find a wide range of international articles and references to research pointing to single-sex schools being better for students in terms of learning, and exam results.

Yes, there is a case to be made for interactions between the genders for co-ed, but.. to say that there is no reason and no real benefit of single-sex schools is terribly inaccurate.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608712#Comment_118608712

Learning how to cook and clean and manage a home are outdated???

Have a look at the thread in accommodation and property about helpless tenants. Makes a strong case for teaching more home-ec, not less.

magicbastarder

that indo article - did they control for socioeconomic factors?

i.e. could their conclusion just as easily have been 'fee paying schools send more pupils to third level education'?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608842#Comment_118608842

Nope, they did not.

There is no real way to accurately measure this. Of course the fact that most of the big private schools are single sex is going to massively skew any figures on this.

There is no way to accurately measure this as to do so you need to remove all other potential causes of variance and this is impossible. There is no way you can ever prove that certain schools perform better due to single sex admittance policies.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608854#Comment_118608854

There is no way you can ever prove that certain schools perform better due to single sex admittance policies.

The opposite of that same argument is just as true though - there is no way anyone can ever prove that certain schools perform better due to not having single-sex admissions policies.

To be honest, knowing the dropout rates among first-years at third level education, I’d tend to take those sorts of articles with a pinch of salt. They don’t prove anything one way or the other, all they do is provide plenty of fodder to fuel the whole argument about which model of education is most suitable at a national level for children in order to achieve the sort of social outcomes proponents on either side of the argument with regard to single-sex or mixed-sex education wish to bring about or promote in society.

In just the same way as you’re of the opinion that single-sex education is weird (I didn’t even point out that you have no experience of single-sex education from the opposite-sex perspective, so how would you know? Like that’s actually a gotcha, as if you don’t know many people of the opposite sex who have received a formal education in single-sex schools), I can’t relate at all to anything written in this article for instance either -

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40792581.html

In reality, there really are an infinite number of factors which will determine individual outcomes over the period of a person’s lifetime, as opposed to the fairly simplistic idea that one form of education is either any better or worse than another at the level of any given society. One could easily suggest that on the basis of the direction society has gone in the US, mixed public secular schools were a terrible idea. That’s a fairly low shot though. People prefer to argue using circumstances and evidence which favour their arguments. Those kinds of strong correlations presented as evidence are based upon confirmation bias too. It sure as hell isn’t based upon facts, and it’s by no means a coincidence.

Boggles

with 17% of our primary school children attending single-sex education and one-third of secondary schools being single-sex

Nearly 1 in 5 primary schools, why?

I imagine a fair bulk of the secondary schools, still have nuns hanging around or are private fee paying schools.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608817#Comment_118608817

That analysis by the independent is invalid since virtually all fee-paying schools are single-sex. There is also a heavy skew towards single-sex schools generally in more affluent areas.

It doesn't prove that single-sex is better. The independent has made a fundamental correlation/causation mistake.

The modern international data on this indicates any "performance boost" in single-sex schooling occurs exclusively in girls, and almost entirely in traditionally male-dominated areas. Other subjects see no improvement.

This indicates that the discrepancy most likely arises due to social biases and little else.

Most parents aren't sociopaths, they know that the social education in school is of far more value than the academic. I'm not sure "a slight bump in maths grades for girls" justifies maintaining an entire structure of segregation.

The biggest resistance to this is from the D4 rugby set who are irked that their alma mater might have to change. Like those gobshites who fought against allowing women join golf clubs. "Things are better the way they are because thats the way I like it".

Pussyhands

Amadhán when he thinks of an all boys school being taught How to Kill a Mockingbird

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUPGcvE4VNePqiexOM/giphy.gif

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609346#Comment_118609346

That analysis by the independent is invalid since virtually all fee-paying schools are single-sex. There is also a heavy skew towards single-sex schools generally in more affluent areas.

It doesn't prove that single-sex is better. The independent has made a fundamental correlation/causation mistake.

Nothing is going to prove that single-sex is better, and I don't see how the research being aimed "more" at affluent areas changes much. It's not as if there's been all that much research done on the topic in Ireland. You've pointed to the international research, and sought to dismiss it, but it still shows a definite difference in learning outcomes.

So, do you have some research that proves that co-ed are better?

The modern international data on this indicates any "performance boost" in single-sex schooling occurs exclusively in girls, and almost entirely in traditionally male-dominated areas. Other subjects see no improvement

Where did you get this from? I've looked at a variety of papers and they didn't restrict improvement to male-dominated areas.. anyway, traditionally male dominated areas would cover a rather large area, so that would be particularly useful for boys learning. Doesn't sound like any kind of negative.

This indicates that the discrepancy most likely arises due to social biases and little else.

That works both ways. Whether it's based on traditional biases, vs modern biases.

You've shown your own bias by dismissing the international research, and seeking to point to social bias, such as "traditionally male dominated areas" as opposed to admitting that the performance of boys in single-sex vs co-d is generally better.

The point is that none of this is clear-cut as yet. I'm not seeing any serious amount of research showing that co-ed is better for students, except for a range of articles talking about the need for boys to be exposed to girls so that they perform better socially. However, again.. it appears very soft and vague based along a reactive response to social issues rather than being based on more definitive proof.

I responded to the posts on the thread claiming that having single-sex schools was pointless and had no value... except that the research on the topic does show value. So, single-sex schools aren't pointless. No?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607587#Comment_118607587

So what about the fact that:

Boys who go to same sex schools get better marks than

Girls who go to same sex schools who get better marks than

Girls who go to mixed sex schools who get better marks than

Boys who go to mixed sex schools?

That's just coincidence, is it? Or is that more "weird reasoning"?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607454#Comment_118607454

Because, obviously, there is nothing socially or politically correct about mixed schools.

You're using "woke" as a buzzword here, as is done frequently by people who have a phobia about Liberalism but the brains to actually exaplain it.

When he have a single-sex or segregated world, I'll accept that single-sex schools are a good idea.

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606725#Comment_118606725

I have trouble believing your statistics and the causality you claim behind them.

Why have international comparators not experienced this problem you claim exists?

Fandymo

I wonder as the demographics in Ireland change, and other cultures decide they want segregated teaching, to go with their segregated worship, will Aodhan be quick to slap them down?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608817#Comment_118608817

Interesting quotes from the article:

Students from mixed schools are more likely to opt against going on to third level.

Kind of skews the idea of getting into college automatically being a success if not all of the students even want to. Not going to third level =/= failure.

"When you are in a mixed setting you are more closely aligned to what society looks like," she said.

"Mixed school settings capture what a normal environment will look like for them. Social and emotional development tends to move quicker in a more positive way about social values in a mixed setting because you are in a diverse setting from the outset."

And this further isolates the idea that education is all about intellectualism and getting points on a CAO form.

Conclusion - flawed idea of definiing what success means.

Mr. teddywinkles

Will there be one fooking thing in the country these clowns won't change? Mostly for the worse.

silverharp

if there were no single sex schools, I doubt we would have won the Rugby at the weekend, case closed!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609591#Comment_118609591

The rape statistics might go down a bit too....

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609529#Comment_118609529

It's weird reasoning because girls perform better in the leaving cert than boys.

(And they do so in exams all over the world, regardless of how common or rare single-sex education happens to be: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/girls-grades)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609581#Comment_118609581

The Catholic Church was saying the same thing back in the early 90s...

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609675#Comment_118609675

given the current big news case, are the Christian brothers running a lot of schools in Eastern Europe? your suggestion just sounds like a slur with no particular basis. Ireland has lower rape stats than countries like France and Germany so maybe the opposite is true

seamus

Here's some research on outcomes for single-sex versus co-ed schools:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6286141/

A couple of highlights:

• People who came from single-sex schools had more social anxiety in mixed-sex environments. Whether that be simple work meetings or going on dates
• Individuals who attended a single-sex school were more likely to be divorced by middle age than individuals who didn't.

But there's more in it.

Like I say, anyone who puts academic outcomes at the top of the list in choosing a school is probably some kind of sociopath. I would rather a child come out with a very poor academic education, but highly confident and well-rounded socially. We already know that academic performance is a very weak indicator of future success anyway.

If a person leaves school slightly underachieving in maths, that's really, really simple to fix. There is no "window" in a child's education where if they can't do algebra, then they'll struggle with it forever.

A person who leaves school socially stunted though will take a lot more effort to fix because teenage years are a psychologically formative "window" where behaviours, patterns and confidence begin to be hard-baked into one's personality.