Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660940#Comment_118660940

I get it, being blasé on thread is not appreciated. I should have said "breasts". Men have breasts.

I never came here to define what a woman is, just to correct false statements being made about this precious "biology".

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660898#Comment_118660898

“A hospital’s expressions of reality”? And I believe you typed that with a straight face 🤨

I’m not unsympathetic to your views if that’s what you mean, I do understand where you’re coming from, but I disagree that it’s as a consequence of trans ideology, when as I see it trans ideologues still don’t have the kind of power or influence you’re suggesting. If they did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It’d be similar to the way all forms of freedom of expression can be stifled to maintain a dominant narrative in any given society.

If you’re lucky, you’ll seldom hear anyone giving it welly these days about the homosexual agenda. The popularity, influence and power of the concept of any transgender agenda is similar. It’s not really something that can be condensed into a single ideology, but it can be if that’s the only ideology you’re aware of that you wish to suggest is responsible for social change. I wouldn’t though, not least because I was aware of what’s called ‘people first language’ before it became a thing in the social sciences to refer to anyone who isn’t white as a ‘person of colour’ or ‘people of colour’ -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language

Some people have taken the concept and run with it, which is why terms like ‘people who are pregnant’ or ‘people who chest feed’ have come into existence. I’m not particularly amenable to that sort of language as I find it jarring and objectifying, but, at the same time, I can understand why organisations providing healthcare might use it in exceptional circumstances where the objective is the provision of healthcare, as opposed to judging whether or not a patient meets the dictionary definition of what’s written on their chart.

There’s a bigger picture I feel you’re missing is all.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661010#Comment_118661010

If men have breasts, why has the word “breast” become so controversial as to be substituted with “chest” in some settings? If both men and women have breasts, as you say, the word should be no more contentious than the word “ear” for the trans community. And i dearly wish it wasn’t, but it is.

I didn't make any false statements about biology.

And I know you are not here to define "woman". Because you can't. Nobody who believes "trans women are women" can.

So the phrase is meaningless.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660989#Comment_118660989

If they only have sex a few times in their lives then clearly it is exceptional

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661051#Comment_118661051

It isn't.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661058#Comment_118661058

You are questioning my sanity for correcting another poster's misunderstanding of biology.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661058#Comment_118661058

She means me. I made an ahem false statement about biology when i quite foolishly made a point about men, wishing they were the other sex, and not being able to lactate, pushing for breasts and breastmilk being refered to as chest and chestmilk. (I am willing to accept that it may be both sides of the trans community who would like to see this happen - not only men.) I should have said “lactate under normal circumstances of their biology”, therefore meaning not as a consequence of disease, and i would have spared myself an afternoon of completely useless and frustrating to and fro, at least with that particular poster. But as the poster herself stated, you can never be blasé on boards! Heh.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661083#Comment_118661083

Oh it is, and what’s more I provided a link and there are plenty more where that came from but none so blind as those that won’t see. Blinded by ideology.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661051#Comment_118661051

Because the practice of medicine has never been just about adhering to dictionary definitions is why.

It’s not so difficult to understand that because of the fact that previously one of the mandatory conditions of availing of sex reassignment surgery was sterilisation, pregnancy was less of an issue for anyone who did not identify themselves as a woman. Pregnancy among people who are transgender has become a more prevalent issue due to the fact that mandatory sterilisation is no longer considered an acceptable condition for people who wish to avail of gender affirmation surgery.

Sweden used carry out the practice up to 2012, and has been embroiled in a controversy over compensation since then -

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/06/stephenbates

https://www.rfsl.se/en/aktuellt/historic-victory-trans-people-swedish-parliament-decides-compensation-forced-sterilizations/https:/www.rfsl.se/en/aktuellt/historic-victory-trans-people-swedish-parliament-decides-compensation-forced-sterilizations/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661112#Comment_118661112

This is how the game works.

Wear women down with idiotic argument about female biology, claim that female biology is not relevant to the definition of "woman", offer no alternative definition in its place.

I suggest you don't play.

The good news is more and more people are waking up to the intellectual vacuum at the heart of this movement

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661068#Comment_118661068

Yes, for them. Not as a fact of life. There is nothing exceptional about having sex (eh, quiet down the back!😂)

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661164#Comment_118661164

Thank you, I will heed your advice! And hope that you are right about people waking up to it ;)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661174#Comment_118661174

The whole thing kicked off because of the claim that men can only lactate in exceptional circumstances. It appeared to be suggesting that as a consequence of their sex, women could lactate at will. They can’t, in spite of what some men would wish to believe -

https://amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jan/28/she-cant-say-no-the-men-who-take-breast-milk-from-babies

It’s fair enough to think there’s nothing exceptional about giving birth, but if you’re not doing it very often, then it’s unreasonable to suggest the phenomenon is anything other than exceptional, and that’s without getting into the reality of it, which I never want to bear witness to again in my life! Whoever thought it was a good idea for anyone who wasn’t used to it being present during childbirth, needs to go away and have a good hard look at themselves 😒

seenitall

No Jack, lactating at will has never once been mentioned on this thread as far as I’m aware (except by yourself)?

Yeah, I gather it’s not the prettiest view. Not for the fainthearted, as they say!! Did you get to cut the umbilical cord? (I suppose you wouldn’t have been up for it much?)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660534#Comment_118660534

 I wonder why you have decided to address where you’re coming from for klaz, yet were so unwilling to do that in the exchange with me?

He addressed one point (which wasn't directed at him) and ignored my follow on post (which was directed at him). So... yeah.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661264#Comment_118661264

I wish they could understand this, instead of getting... Not allowed to use the H word, let's say "excited", that no one is trying to downplay womanhood based on men having breast tissue also. It's like a man crying because he saw a woman with hirsutism, a very common condition suffered by women that is not talked about because of this 'men have a penis, women have a vagina, end of, there is no grey area" type thinking. We all have breasts. We all have hair. It grows differently depending on HORMONES, not biology.

So if you want to define the difference between men and women, use the bits that we don't have in common. That would be fairly obvious I would think, but seeing how much I have tried to teach junior cert biology since about 1pm and still it's not getting across, here we go again:

Men have testes that make sperm.

Women have ovaries that release eggs. Women have a womb that builds up an endometrial lining at a regular basis and sheds if a fertilised egg does not implant.

Now some men do NOT produce sperm. This can be for many reasons and does not negate their biology. Some women do NOT have a womb or do NOT ovulate and this does not negate their biology.

Thanks for being the voice of reason Jack.

"hormones not biology"

Hormones are biological. What the hell do you think they are?

I would stop with the pompous "look at me having to explain simple biology" talk if I were you. You haven't got a clue.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661395#Comment_118661395

Here we go, slily throwing a dig in yet again. The fact that I am still here for your digs and willing to read your disingenuous posting I think bears witness quite nicely to my patience with you here, let alone getting “excited”. But I do find it funny that you are still evading the point of “breast” being a word of contention in relation to trans community to the point that it is being politicised and modified to “chest” lest it hurt someone’s feelings. In medical settings. Instead of engaging with that, and what the reason for that might be, all we get here is plain denial that it is happening at all. So excuse me if I take your musings on hirsutism and similar with a great big pinch of salt.

You called me “excited”, which is I guess a big progression from “utterly hysterical” but still uncalled for, so I reserve the right to call you a disingenuous poster who seeks to undermine by getting personal as you have no coherent argument on my points. Just denial.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661445#Comment_118661445

I am happy for you that you and no one close to you has ever been affected by a hormone imbalance, an extremely common condition that men and women alike are forced to suffer in silence because of the likes of you who refuse to acknowledge that human biology is not black and white, but full of greys. We all have the same hormones. Yes women have testosterone. Men have estrogen! It really is like trying to teach sex to five year olds now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661462#Comment_118661462

I wasn't talking about you. Not everything is about you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661363#Comment_118661363

He was assigned female at birth.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661478#Comment_118661478

If you think really hard can you think of any differences in typical testosterone levels between men and women?

Sex is actually pretty black and white. It's one of the most black and white things in nature. It isn't perfectly binary, sure, but it's pretty damn close.

Anyway you can't even define "man" and "woman" so with respect you clearly know very little about the subject.

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661487#Comment_118661487

Lovely. I have to say, I’m thrilled that your MO of accusing people of getting uh excited (with an attendant insinuation of being unreasonable) when you don’t like their posts, is not reserved solely for me. Phew!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661507#Comment_118661507

Wow, what was he before birth I wonder?

You sure you understand how sex works?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661531#Comment_118661531

You called me "he".

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661549#Comment_118661549

No, that was klaz. klaz didn’t know whether you were a he or a she, so he went with a 50/50 assumption. 😂 (same as myself earlier in the day)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661562#Comment_118661562

Yes I know!! How many times do you reed to be told I am not always talking about YOU? God you're like my older brother crying "I was first!" Yes I know you are here in the thread but sometimes I am speaking to other people, not you. I will talk to you next, I promise!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661358#Comment_118661358

It’s only been mentioned by myself because the point was being made that men can only lactate in certain circumstances, and I was pointing out that the same is true of women - that they too can only lactate in certain circumstances. I went further and said that some people regard pregnancy as a medical condition whereas I would not regard pregnancy as a medical condition.

The point I’m making is that the same sort of thing you’re trying to do, is the very thing you’re arguing against - defining women based upon stereotypes. I was asked earlier by @[Deleted User] how do I define woman then, and I ignored the question, not because I want to avoid some intellectual vacuum, but because I’d rather not create one based upon a standard definition of what I imagine constitutes womanhood. I just think it’s a stupid question really, as there is no one single answer that everyone will agree on. The same is true of any definition of manhood - philosophers and academics have wrangled with the question for centuries. I’m certainly not keen to get into any sort of an intellectual pissing contest.

I genuinely can’t remember whether I was offered to cut the cord or not tbh, I can remember the nurse asking me did I want to hold the baby and me thinking “I’m wearing a white shirt!”, but doing it anyway because it seemed like the done thing to do! 😂

seenitall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661568#Comment_118661568

Ah bless your cotton socks, budgese, you really are the gift that keeps on giving. What to do but smile at the darling naïveté in thinking you somehow got to me, used me, or had me made a fool out of. As the poster above said, you’re the butt of the joke here, not its maker. And you still don’t see it! ;)

I don’t know why you feel the need to get so personal with people whose posts you don’t like but I would suggest reigning it in lest something like this happens to you again. I would never have cried misogyny, because I have had ample time to do that with you even after your Great Reveal. Never heard of internalised misogyny? But I didn’t and I wouldn’t because I know the tactic you use pretty well, and I don’t think it is misogyny, per se, at least not in your case. It’s just trying to shut down a view you don’t like by any means at your disposal. A pity that you don’t have a more substantial point to make, rather than stooping to insults of calling hysteria and similar. I’m sorry this isn’t nice to read, but when you conduct yourself with a bit more grace in a debate (as I am sure you will from now on ;)), it’s only then you get the respect that your conduct deserves.

If you can't define the words then you can't use the words, because they mean nothing and express nothing.

That's what I mean by an intellectual vacuum.