Housing Madness

snow_bunny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118711011#Comment_118711011

My God, I enjoyed that thoroughly. Thanks.

The rage I feel (and there's hundreds of thousands more just like me) in the face of these complete fuckwits attributing this mess to incompetence or stupidity is off the charts. The dogs on the street have realised it's all engineered since day one. Noonan set that whole approach in action after the crash.

The actions regarding housing are there for all to see, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude the contributng factors of this crisis were and remain on purpose. Actions being the key, not words.

The gaslighting from some vested interests is shameful. They'd piss down your back and tell you it's raining.

Why haven't the government had councils compulsory purchase land and started building themselves?

Why do they compete and outbid private buyers in this market?

Why haven't they placed even a temporary ban on non residents purchasing property here?

Why haven't they placed even a temporary ban on REITs buying up homes here?

Why do they continue to rent, at huge costs, through HAP when they will have no asset at the end of a multi decade lease?

Why haven't they greatly increased taxes on non primary residences?

Why haven't they greatly increased taxes on vacant buildings?

Why haven't they extended the RPZ countrywide?

There's no sense of urgency. They'll continue to tell us "it can't be solved overnight" while they do nothing of value.

They don't want to fix it.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716059#Comment_118716059

I was honest in everything I posted. Were you not being honest until now?

snow_bunny

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/theres-no-housing-bubble-michael-noonan-wants-prices-to-rise-30168455.html

2014 "FINANCE Minister Michael Noonan wants house prices to rise further and claims fears of another property bubble in Dublin are exaggerated."

https://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/help-to-buy-scheme-will-drive-up-house-prices-noonan-warned-35122160.html

2016 "Michael Noonan's first time buyers scheme will simply drive prices even higher and lock greater numbers of people out of home ownership," he said.

The Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI) said the help-to-buy scheme would have very little impact on the housing crisis.

2022 and they're still at it even though its massively overcorrected:

https://www.newstalk.com/news/central-bank-warns-shared-equity-scheme-could-drive-up-house-prices-1281995

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/opinion-government-does-not-want-house-prices-to-fall-1.4734722?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fopinion-government-does-not-want-house-prices-to-fall-1.4734722

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/large-investors-drive-up-house-prices-in-europes-cities-study-finds

snow_bunny

Just the most recent damning evidence, a letter from the UN:

https://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/housing/un-sent-irish-government-a-letter-on-housing-crisis/

"The Irish government received a letter in March from the UN rapporteur, Leilani Farha, stating that, “housing in Ireland is moderately unaffordable.” The UN was using this letter as a wakeup call to the Irish government and made some very serious allegations. One of the allegations that the letter made was, “house prices are now approaching levels last seen at the height of the property bubble.” This statement relives a terrible time in the history of Ireland. The Irish government responded by saying that average households only spend one-fifth of their income on housing costs but acknowledged some prominent issues that need to be improved.

A couple of the top problems stated in the letter related to land hoarding and equity landlords. First, land hoarding occurs when investors will purposefully sit on a property to increase demand and lower supply in the area before selling/renting. This is causing major problems for citizens that are struggling to keep up with the increasing prices. The other problem is landlords, “have openly discussed policies of introducing the highest rents possible in order to increase returns for shareholders.” The letter even specifically cited I-RES REIT for this issue because they are Ireland’s largest landlord.

The Irish government spent approximately three months before sending their 16-page response to the UN. The housing market is a sensitive subject in Ireland, and they wanted to make sure that a thorough and factual response was put in place. Initiatives that the government included in their response were help-to-buy scheme, vacant levy tax, and rent pressure zones. It was discerning for many people that the government failed to mention the record homeless numbers in Ireland and provided no solution for the 10,378 people and rising.

The UN addressed the rental market in Dublin by saying, “in Dublin a person with an average salary renting the average property now has to allocate 86.3% of their income on rent” and there is a “constant escalation of housing costs for tenants.” The Irish government contributed to this problem to the growing economy which is causing a strong demographic growth and driving up the rental market prices. The Irish government indicated that they have introduced rent pressure zones, which only allow for rental properties in that area to increase price by four percent annually among other restrictions.

Many countries are beginning to take notice into Ireland’s housing market, and it is time for the government to address the problems head on. The UN wrote a letter in the hopes that it would provide a more urgent approach to the issues from the government’s perspective."

We're only paying a fifth of our income on rents, plenty of room to go eh.

They government must be referencing some cottage in Leitrim there because as the UN pointed out to them, it's actually ~86% of average salary in Dublin or 43% between two.

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716236#Comment_118716236

It's as straight as an arrow, all this housing malarkey! Not manufactured in the least.

In addition to the blatant shitery you demonstrate of them, and the practical condemnation of the United Nations, and this, and that, and that, and this...you'll still have those special select few attempting to stutter out excuses and cloak the corruption. And many times, no doubt, these people are being robbed too. Crazy stuff.

In addition to all the above is the 11th commandment territory of immigration. A governance that wrings it's hands at the housing crisis in despair, while it controls immigration and housing construction. Bare-faced cheek. And yet they've gotten away with it up to now. It's slow, but the truth is sure, it rises to the top. Look at the whoopsy daisy post I made above to get a glimpse at figures.

From a recent article on one of the crooked housing firms..."Several judges have been told that their main source of funding was through the Immigrant Investment Programme, under which non-EEA citizens who invest €1 million in Ireland can obtain residency."

Quelle surprise, one of them was caught! I'm sure they'll receive a light spanking now that they've bought citizenship in such a favourable way with the right fellas, wink wink, say no more! Oh and don't question where, and this is literal, 90%+ of those people come from. One could say it's not only a special visa, but a special, special visa!

Ne'er to be seen or allowed within 100 miles of each other are the scandalously separated faces of the government, namely that of it's population plans with migration and them blowing bubbles about solving the housing crisis. The propaganda arm of Righteous Telefis Eireann have their orders for programming, no fear of a slip up.

And the journalists who should be all over this like the plague, pulitzer-style hunting ground, where the hell are they? The integrity of a cardboard car for fear of breaking the 11th commandment.

It's a small bloody country at the end of the day, very small.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716236#Comment_118716236

That "most recent" damning evidence is from June 2019. Is that the most recent?

snow_bunny

It is, to me, the most damning yet impartial recent source yes. It's the UN not a random opinion piece in the Donegal Chronical.

I mean I could be here all night finding further evidence but I'll let you discover the wonders of Google yourself.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715674#Comment_118715674

So my explanation with proof is less than yours without proof and I am the idiot?

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716601#Comment_118716601

Never mind responding to the likes of that tomfoolery, the transparency of a window in running interference against the truth. Maybe those virtue vouchers are real, after all!

Between the list of stuff both you and I have pointed out in short order...

Population increase plans for nowt stated reason...

Pathetic attempts at construction...

Wealthy Immigrant visas linked to housing...

Stated plans to increase the price of housing...

Nearly a decade of failure, a decade of no repercusions...

The United Nations chiming in...

REIT's...

Zero-tax incentives to buy swathes of housing...

Public housing opened to the world....

Government guaranteed rent-backs at sky high prices for decades....

Nama selling at cents on the euro...

Government money competing against first-time buyers...

Retro-fits of existing housing above half a million per home...

Exorbitant luxury builds given the go-ahead....

Exorbitant "international student housing" developments...

And on and on and on.

And out of all that, all of that, the one thing that has been allowed filter to the zeitgeist is the excuse of "duhhhhh, supply is the problem!"

Amazing. And as said above, in a veritable shooting gallery for journalists, there's barely a word to be seen?!

Then you have people popping along to say it's just the governance being stupid, excusing them of all responsibility, negligence and therefore providing free-reign to continue apace? After nearly a decade of it????

The shoe fits. The housing crisis has been manufactured by bullshit artists making money hand over fist, backed up by bullshit artists getting robbed hand over fist for virtue vouchers. What a mix, whew!

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716933#Comment_118716933

Listen, you've already maxed out your virtue vouchers for the day, okay?

I doubt you even know what you're saying at this point, it's just gobbledygook. I've replied coherently several times to you and you just want to get some incomprehensible last word in. Okay, go for it, say something else and you win.

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631853#Comment_118631853

YEAH????

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118717009#Comment_118717009

Coherently?LOL

No you spouted nonsense without any proof just claims. Your claim is people are pocketing money but can't name a single person of how they do it. Have you any evidence of any of your claims? You claim you used your deductive skills. Deduce this this if a person has no proof of their claims should you believe them?

snow_bunny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631853#Comment_118631853

All that'll happen then is the prices will be raised to meet these new payment capabilities. The same amount of properties would be on the market but there would then be more people capable of bidding and buying them. All this would do is drive prices further upward in line with the raised demand.

The only thing keeping a lid on any of this is are the bank lending rules.

Gant21

A massive shortage of 804 now because of the war.

YFlyer

How about the Ukrainian people escaping the war?

dxhound2005

The population of Ireland increased by more than one million since 2002. Still only the population of a big city, and there are plenty of vacant houses. If someone had predicted 20 years ago that there would be one million extra living here, they would have been told not possible, we do not have enough houses.

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718098#Comment_118718098

Any dickhead can say "that's nonsense", it means nothing.

Yes, I have replied to you coherently. I have laid out my reasoning, step by step, which you can't criticise beyond the level of a 6 year old. People are free to look back and see it.

They are also free to see that your argument begins with "they are just incompetent", and ends with "they are just incompetent". Silly, silly stuff.

Now to your ridiculous demands. Engage the lump on your neck for 60 seconds...

You want me to provide proof of my logic. What does that entail? What possible proof could be offered by anyone? You are looking for the likes of bank statements? Why would I have access to bank statements? You are looking for voice recordings of culpability? How would I have such a thing? And so on.

Ridiculous, a complete farce. You won't believe the most obvious thing in the world until you are hand delivered incontrovertible, unobtainable proof. Well, that's mighty convenient, isn't it? A self-contained, unassailable, self-propelled delusion.

And all this while your magnificent theory is "they are stupid"!

Well here's one for you, Sherlock Holmes, WHERES THE PROOF OF THEIR STUPIDITY? HAVE YOU GOT IQ TESTS TO HAND? LEAVING CERT RESULTS? COLLEGE GRADES? NO, YOU DONT??!?!? OH WELL, GUESS YOU ARE FULL OF SHYT!

That's the extent of your reasoning. And it is thoroughly thick.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719126#Comment_118719126

Incompetent doesn't mean stupid. Have you ever worked in or for any government department? Even a large company?

Proof of somebody pocketing money like you said. According to you those in government with property are manipulating the government policies to enrich themselves. You should be able to point to a particular TD who did this. Can you explain why the policies that have been introduced over the last 15 years have been punitive towards small landlords? LPT, PRTB, RPZ, extra prsi and refusal of HAP is illegal too. You claim the TDS are doing themselves favours yet here is a list of things that are bad for landlords. How does that work?

It is like your claim is easily disproved by showing reality yet you are to be believed because you think it but have no proof. What makes your claims any more valid than saying that they are lizard people and that is why they are doing it? I genuinely don't understand your logic

snow_bunny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719190#Comment_118719190

One quarter of TDs are landlords (that's the stuff they've to declare, on record, and does not include shares in REIT type investments or properties under their partners names)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/michael-healy-rae-is-d%C3%A1il-s-biggest-landlord-and-declares-nyt-shares-1.4496338

Here's a rich list of millionaire TDs, Lowry at the top with €2,782,065 worth of property and land:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RIloq4113DiO4_wvkKi-S9ayUwsbV2eP/htmlview

Do you think they want reasonable rents and property values? If so, I've a few chocolate teapots you might be interested in.

So three quarters of TDs are NOT landlords.

How are the landlords able to control things then?

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719190#Comment_118719190

I should be able to point to people pocketing money? So, provide you with bank statements, video recordings from behind a hedge, drone footage of secret meetings on the rooftops of O'Connell street... or perhaps you'd like to be pinpoint accurate in what you want as proof?

Equating my reasoning as equal to lizard people. Saying that what I say is "easily disproven", yet here you are, many posts later, and you cant find a point in a pencil factory.

Get a grip, man, will you?

Oh yeah, and then something something, their incompetence has helped some people something something. Or is that incompetence, or competence, or wtf are you on about at all?

There's just no way you are being genuine at this point, no way. Your supposed reasoning is too stupid to be stupid. It's entirely reasonable to assume that you're just another in a long line of interference makers, trying to distort reality, somehow or other vested into the entirely manufactured bubble of p!ss that is our housing situation.

What you're doing is equivalent to squealing at the back of lecture hall for sheer disruption.

In the meantime, I'll bounce your supreme reasoning back at you. Where's the proof of their incompetence? Nothing but bonafide, documented evidence will suffice, and until you provide that documentation, you're a lizard, or something.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719265#Comment_118719265

Now show that their votes did them favours because that is the claim. TDs vote for stuff that makes them money and you also need to show they voted against policies that were bad for landlords. Did either of you somehow miss part of your education where deductive reasoning was taught.

It is intersting it is an independent that is the focus of the article too

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719298#Comment_118719298

So did you ever work in any large organisation or not? You don't want to discuss proof so lets talk about your understanding of the world

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719324#Comment_118719324

It you built a block for every word you post a house would be built by now.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673739#Comment_118673739

Still much better than being out on the street. Standards have gone up too much, people lived in these houses and much worse in years gone by. People turning up their noses at a bad BER and a septic tank / well is madness

sutrapall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719324#Comment_118719324

"Let's talk about your understanding of the world".

How about no?

If someone ever wanted an undiluted example of pure obfuscation to distract away from any sort of reasonable conversation, look no further than the exchange going on here.

Moving along...

The sensible, reasonable, deductible logic staring this country in the face is this; the housing crisis is manufactured and they have zero intentions of changing it. There are bad actors everywhere (look above) trying to sell snake oil.

Everything points to it, everything. I encourage people to look back over the last few pages, and don't take anything at face value but use it as a starting point to educate themselves and do some investigation of their own. Stop believing what you're told.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719393#Comment_118719393

You are the one not answering questions not me! I have an opposing view to yours and have given reasons why yours makes no sense and lacks evidence. It is obvious you don't want to discuss the issue with me but I am free to poke holes in your claims all the same.

I have pointed out your views are not sensible as why would TDs bring in punitive charges to landlords? You aren't explaining how reality counters your view. Maybe you are really bright and can explain how this works. How does this point to the TDs making policies to favour themselves because I think this is part of "everything" that you says points a different way.

I take it you never worked in a large organisation and watched as committee decisions are often disasters due to taking on too many views. Watched as miscommunication created a mess etc... The government is a huge ship and steering it is difficult. THen add incompetence and you have what you get. That is why to beleive everthing is planned is just laughable. They aren't simultaneously genius masterminds and incompetent.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719338#Comment_118719338

I have built houses

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118716236#Comment_118716236

I was talking to a lecturer a few weeks ago who said that economics lecturers now use Irelands housing/rental market as the example to show how governments can destroy markets through populist interference. We are the new poster child for why rent controls have the opposite effect of what you think they will.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719494#Comment_118719494

Were any of those houses 'one bedroom' houses?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719984#Comment_118719984

no

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720000#Comment_118720000

The reason I asked was because I think building one-bedroom houses/apartments is very short sighted. I think it was you who was recommending the building of one-bedroom accommodation for single people. Most people don't stay single, and building a one-bedroom property is very short sighted IMHO.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720041#Comment_118720041

Then they move on. It is about having suitable accomadation for different types of lifestyle. Many people stay or end up single. There is a place for single dwellings and we currently lack them in the market. We have way too many 3 bed semis. It is a lack of understanding to suggest there is no place for them and creating them is shortsighted. It is actually known to be required by those who study the housing stock. It doesn't really mater if you like them or not, cities need them and Ireland has a lack of them compared to other cities.

They are required

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720613#Comment_118720613

Then they move on.

Given our shortage of accommodation, where do they move to? I just think if we build a load of one-bedroom accommodation, it leaves us with less flexibility as the years go by.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720734#Comment_118720734

It is all part of a long term movement. As time moves on more OAPs die freeing up their property. THe more one bedrooms in areas also allows older people down size within their community. Are you really saying there is no place for them in the market?

What happened to all the people who lived in bedsits did they never exist? I know lots of single professionals who want to live on their own but can't find one bed places.

Having people live in property that suits their needs is a better use of resources of housing stock. I know people living in 3 bed houses because they couldn't something that suited their needs so you have 3 beds with one person living in them. OAPs living in 5 beds on their own actually find it hard to maintain and would like to downsize

Elessar

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0302/1284033-ukrainian-refugees/

Not to ignore the atrocity happening in Ukraine right now, but an immediate need for accommodation for up to 20,000 refugees is only going to add fuel to the already raging fire. This is unlikely to be a temporary thing. Government need absolutely radical changes to housing provision ASAP.

riclad

dermot gavin from room to improve was interviewed ,he said we need to build 1000s of houses every year ,social housing, private housing, rental housing.like 30-40k units every to catch up with demand , the problem is in 2022 do we have the workers to build even 20k units per year. if a house costs 250k how many houses can the government afford to build per year.Are young people training to be painters, plumbers , bricklayers .i,d like to see an expert report explaining ,why have the no of units fallen so low versus say houses built in 2000.Are planning delays and height restrictions causing it to be more expensive to build a standard 3 bed house or apartment unit

maestroamado

Just to do a comparison with whats happening here and in NI... i was chatting with a lady from Belfast yesterday and she told me her 23 daughter had bought an apartment in Belfast on her own... Parents helped with deposit but she was paying the mortgage herself with no difficulty...

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724419#Comment_118724419

Look at employment rates and salaries in NI and come back to us. Belfast is a very run down place

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724615#Comment_118724615

I know where the apartment is and its not a run down area... its not for me to research salaries but that is whats going on... its good enough for us as we allowed it to happen...

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724670#Comment_118724670

You are not comparing like with like is the point. Apartments are cheaper when there is less demand and less income to buy. Comparing prices in Belfast to Dublin is not a equal comparison. Yes you can earn less and buy in Belfast compared to Dublin not a surprise or a great revelation it is simple economics. Belfast is a run down city with lots of vacant buildings in the city centre.

I remember when Belfast was in much better condition than Dublin and prices in Dublin were less than Belfast. Things change and the amount of money in Dublin compared to Belfast is huge.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724615#Comment_118724615

wAGES are lower in NI, yes.

But new apts are available from 110k GBP, that is way, way lower than in Dublin.

https://www.haganhomes.co.uk/highgrove-meadows-belfast-bt13-3fx/d2625

Geuze

To give an example of a job I know.

Starting salary in Queens Uni Belfast = GBP 37,467

Modest apt in Hagan development = GBP 110k, under 3x annual starting salary.

Same job in UCC / UL / NUIG starts at 37k-41k

Any apts available under 125k euro in those cities?

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720734#Comment_118720734

Well designed one bed's would have plenty of demand, before I bought I was looking for one beds, next to impossible to find...

There are different stages to people's life's, and for some a single bed apartment near some social/night life is what they desire

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724819#Comment_118724819

Yes. There is less demand so prices of land are much lower before you even start building. Then we have a higher vat rate and higher insurance costs for building here. Building labour is cheaper up north etc... so yes they will be cheaper. You aren't making a point just illustrating there is a price difference. Easily explained and it has been. Houses are cheaper in Romania too.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724856#Comment_118724856

Hagan must think they can make more money elsewhere. Easy excuse to blame the planners, but it would all be about higher profit in other markets.

Belfast Telegraph 06 Sept 2021.

Founder and chairman of Hagan Homes, James Hagan, says it’s with great sadness that he will pull his business out of NI to work in the north of England and the Republic of Ireland. The businessman, who has been operating Hagan Homes for more than 30 years and built more than 4,000 homes here, blamed “lengthy, complicated planning processes” as well as “consultee bureaucracy” which he describes as an “absolute nightmare”.

Also whoever has that £110K apartment has a hefty £884 annual bill for property tax to consider.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722742#Comment_118722742

Perhaps take action yourself, sponsor a few loads of 804.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724776#Comment_118724776

I am not comparing at all... i am station that a 23 year old lady can buy an apartment in large city Belfast... a distant dream for any of similar age down here...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725574#Comment_118725574

but then that 23 year old lady has to live in Belfast

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725574#Comment_118725574

I don't think you understand the word "compare".