single sex vs mixed schools

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162448#Comment_122162448

I'd agree with this, there are many factors that go into schooling, and many of them are significantly more important than single sex versus Co Ed.

One of the practical issues faced here though is, if a school is needed in a growing suburb, single sex schooling requires 2 schools and the Deptartment are barely able to get one school built for the first set of kids by the time they hit LC. It's a practical issue as well as an ideological one.

I can't see many single sex schools surviving in the long run for practical reasons really, maybe in large market towns with a girls religious, boys CBS and a co ed but there are so many other issues in schools I would love to see the media be even vaguely interested in. Your kids not having qualified teachers or substitutes and the rate at which the LC reforms will drive experienced teachers to early retirement would be of more concern to me than boys or girls in class.

On the previous thing about relationships, we actually do a good bit around this. Appropriate behaviour, what makes people uncomfortable, why we don't talk in particular ways.......the number of young people who think slagging and hitting is a sign of flirting is worrying.

Caquas

More nonsense research shows there is a correlation between ability to do maths problems and anxiety about doing maths problems.

You might think - Of course, if you struggle with Maths, you will feel more anxious about doing maths problems. But you don’t have a Ph.d. in social science. Otherwise you would see that it is the anxiety about maths that causes underperformance in maths tests. And, if you went for the Nobel Prize in bogus research, you would find that the anxiety of parents about maths rubs off on their kids (because it couldn’t possibly be that the kids inherited their parents’ brainpower)

Of course this is driven by concern that girls underperform boys in maths (boys underperform girls in every other subject but that is just natural and not an issue which merits research in Ireland.)

These researchers are particularly puzzled about girls in Co-Ed schools.

“It is striking that girls underperformed in some maths tasks despite having the same teachers and attending co-ed school,” said Arithmós Project lead, Dr Flavia H Santos of UCD.

It would never have entered Dr Santos’ mind that girls in single-sex schools outperform girls in Co-Ed schools, especially in maths.

Parents’ anxiety about maths may affect children’s performance, study finds

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/05/26/parents-anxiety-about-maths-may-affect-childrens-performance-study-finds/

Caquas

The Irish Times tells us that research has found that female students in Irish secondary school reported

significantly greater levels of participation in creative activities in school on average than their male counterparts. This contrasts with the wider pattern across the OECD, where male students report greater levels of participation.

Of course, the IT will not report that this reversal of the usual pattern is largely because

Students in girls’ secondary schools reported the highest level of participation in creative activities in school, significantly higher than those in all other school types.

There was plenty more in the report about higher levels of creativity and openness associated with girls' secondary schools.

Students in girls’ secondary schools were significantly more likely to have principals who held positive views towards their school’s engagement with creative pedagogies and indicate high levels of openness to intellect and art among their students than students in mixed secondary schools or community/comprehensive schools. Students attending girls’ secondary schools were also more likely to report higher levels of engagement with creative activities within school than students attending any other type of school. These findings are consistent with other studies in Irish context that have noted the how engagement with the arts is often gendered in Ireland. Of particular interest to this report is Smyth’s finding (2020), that arts education subjects were more likely to be offered in girls’ schools. 

You might have expected the Irish Times to celebrate anything which supports creativity among young women in Ireland but the IT has a more complex agenda. Facts are no obstacle to those who are abolishing same-sex schooling in Ireland by stealth.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/07/04/irish-students-significantly-less-likely-to-engage-with-complex-information/

Dickie10

the doggies on the street would tell the IT girls in an all girls school are more comfortable to engage in artisitic and creative activities without boys present they all feel comfortable to engage. has anyone come across many schools that have a heavy female to male demographic in mixed schools? i know of plenty of male to female mixed schools where its 80-20 in male favour, a very unhealthy dynamic there, i know of schools that are like that.

whisky_galore

The sorts of liberal people that want "choice", usually want the only available choices to be the ones they agree with ideologically.

Realistically with teacher shortages, funding etc, schools are going to be forced to amalgamate, for good or ill.

Hotblack Desiato

Great, we can finally do away with religious prudery in education.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352451#Comment_122352451

any evidence for the above??

Dickie10

yes from seeing it in all girls schools compared to SOME mixed schools I worked in. Definitely it’s a disaster having mixed schools with a majority of boys this is happening quite a bit, when an all boys school changed to mixed, especially of that all boys school had discipline problems before it became mixed. One school I know of put a quota on boys coming in and pushed numbers on girls to get numbers eventually 50:50 , excellent school though as a boys and now mixed.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352499#Comment_122352499

Any evidence for your claim that liberals “usually want the only available choice to be the one they agree with ideology?(sic)” Or were you just looking in the mirror?

Because while there may well be a case for amalgamation in some circumstances, it is clear (though never admitted) that the only available type of amalgamation is the one the Department wants ideologically - mixed gender.

I remember a time when the Labour Party was liberal on social issues. And I’m so old I remember that rural Labour TDs were the most conservative on social issues - no contraception! No divorce!

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357438#Comment_122357438

I remember the time the a Labour minister for education sent his kids to fee charging school and then went on the board of the most expensive private school in the country.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357500#Comment_122357500

When did Labour start to oppose fee-paying schools? It certainly didn’t when “free” secondary education was introduced by Fianna Fáil. Dick Spring was a boarding school boy.

The Left today has no ambition for our children except equality. So they are in an undeclared war with parents who want the best for their children. Most parents have no real choice of schools. That’s by design.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357891#Comment_122357891

Not exactly opposed them , but definitely put the squeeze on...

The Labour Party in Ireland has taken several stances related to fee-paying schools:

1. Removing Elitism in School Admissions:
   • The Labour Party introduced the Education (Admission to Schools Bill) 2020 to amend the existing School Admissions Bill.
   • Their goal is to eliminate the provision that reserves 25% of school places for children and grandchildren of past pupils.
   • This change aims to address elitism and ensure fair access to schools regardless of family history1.
2. Taxing Private School Fees:
   • In their manifesto, the Labour Party proposed adding tax to private school fees.
   • The funds generated from this tax would be used to recruit teachers for state schools2.
3. Ending State Subsidies for Private Schools:
   • Labour Party member Aodhán Ó Ríordáin called for an end to the practice of subsidizing private schools.
   • He believes that private schools should not receive any state funding for building works4.
4. Motion to Cut Subsidies:
   • The Labour Party previously proposed a motion to terminate the €90 million state subsidy for private secondary schools.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122361280#Comment_122361280

Like all the parties of the Left, the Labour Party today wants to undermine the fee-paying schools in every way possible but, of course, Labour won't say that openly to the middle-class, middle-aged voters on whom Labour depends.

Remarkably, a Labour Party private members Bill was passed in 2018 which sets out a long list of criteria that cannot be used for schools admissions e.g. academic performance, first-come-first-served. But their Bill was amended to allow up to 25% of "legacy" admissions (children or grandchildren of past pupils). Labour wants to remove that exemption.

Labour has not proposed to eliminate the exception for same-sex schools which are still allowed to discriminate in admissions on the grounds of gender. That would be a step too far even for Labour because it would create chaos on Day 1 which would arouse those middle-class voters.

Caquas

Junior Minister for Education Patrick O’Donovan had a go at single-sex schools and was promptly put back in his box.

He imagines that kids going to single-sex schools have no contact with the opposite sex 😫

We need a wider debate in this country about the power of the Department which has replaced the Catholic Church in its unaccountable control over our children’s education. Why can’t parents get funding for alternative schools they want, not just replicas of existing schools? For example, what about teaching for the International Baccalaureate, not the soul-destroying Leaving? That is currently only available to those rich enough to afford private fees.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/its-ridiculous-to-blame-toxic-masculinity-on-single-sex-schools/a1343635399.html

Caquas

The media/academia campaign against single-sex schools is unending. UCD has issued a report on

CHILDREN’S SCHOOL LIVES: EQUALITIES IN CHILDREN’S SCHOOL LIVES: THE IMPACT OF GENDER

The report confirms some fundamental gender-based issues that are well-known. Boys tend not to like school and girls do better in every subject except maths. This doesn't seem to bother these academics who offer no ideas which would help boys do better in school but their report makes clear that these fundamental challenges to boys' education are not affected by whether children are in single-sex or co-ed schools.

Could this gender divide over schooling/learning have anything to do with the fact that 82% of teachers in this study are female? Could this be why teachers are more likely to expect girls to be successful in getting into college? No one seems too bothered by any of this, so long as the girls catch up with the boys in maths.

In fact, the researchers' main concern seems to be that children

"differentiate between the attributes and behaviours of boys and girls. Girls are typically identified by all children as being more engaged with learning, less disruptive in class and more gentle in play activities than are boys". The children identify a ‘good’ boy with intelligence, ability in maths and being physically strong while ‘good’ girls are associate with niceness, kindness, caring and politeness.

Even more worryingly for the researchers, children who attended single-sex schools tended to express preferences for attending such schools.

All that has got to change! So the media highlight the only finding where single-sex schools seem to be at a disadvantage - the number of friends children have. But even here the report notes that

Girls in all-girls’ schools had the highest levels of closeness/social connectivity while boys in all-boys’ schools the lowest.

As I keep saying, this is not just about single-sex v. co-ed, this is about school choice. Why do we think a single school model is best for everyone? Why don't we give parents and children choices which will suit their individual needs and preferences? Only 6% of the schools in this survey were single-sex but the aim of the media/academics is to eliminate all such schools entirely, regardless of the preferences of many children and their parents.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/1206/1485000-co-educational-schools-report/

Hotblack Desiato

Choice? Where I live, with the exception of one very small mixed-sex Church of Ireland primary which is completely full, all of the schools (primary and secondary) are single sex and Catholic.

Dickie10

im finding that parents are saying with regard to choice " i have no choice for my children, theres a good girls school and a good boys school and of course the mixed community school but i dont want that school because its a bad reputation and is down the league table." thats sometimes the bit you dont hear , sometimes there is a mixed school option but parents dont want it.

would somebody do a quick search on the TDs elected last week and find out where the female TDs went to school? i am after searching a huge amount of the most succesful women on tv and in politics in ireland at present and a vast majority went to an all girls school, surely theres something in that?

Hotblack Desiato

Dickie what you're talking about is not about single sex schools being better, it's about schools for snobs being exclusive and exclusionary.

Frost Spice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159167#Comment_122159167

My friend's son experienced the exact opposite. Tormented to pieces in a co-ed school - some of the bullying had a nasty sexual element to it: pornographic images being texted to him, with messages that he was a [insert insult] if he didn't do that with girls. It was an out of control environment though - none of the staff seemed to command any respect. He thankfully moved schools, to an all boys one, where he thrived. No bullying - zero tolerance policy on that. Kids just left to whatever they were into if they were "nerdy". Of course this is just one anecdote, but I guess my point is that it depends on the school, not whether it's single sex or mixed.

Hotblack Desiato

So a very badly run mixed school is worse than a well run single sex one.

News at 11.

Ozymandius2011

I dont think single-sex schools prepare children for the reality of a world that is not single-sex.

Theres an argument that perhaps it encourages the exclusion of the other gender in a discriminatory way when they grow up and some get leadership positions like employers, political leaders etc.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122931506#Comment_122931506

i am after searching a huge amount of the most succesful women on tv and in politics in ireland at present and a vast majority went to an all girls school, surely theres something in that?

Private schools? Or public single sex schools?

May not just be whether or not they went to school with boys is the most important factor.

I can't remember who said it, but I do recall an English commentator saying their 'public' school system was the greatest antidote to impostor syndrome.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929604#Comment_122929604

Bad luck! Do you live on an island or mountain-top?

Almost 90% of recognized primary, post-primary and special-ed schools in Ireland (Republic) are mixed-sex. (226 boys schools, 215 girls schools, and 3583 mixed schools.)

That ratio is declining under pressure from academics and the media who can't tolerate diversity in education. All on the same curriculum, all following the same rules. One size fits all children.

Caquas

The IT Education correspondent comments on the UCD study but, strangely, makes no mention of single-sex schools. Did he see this thread? He does share the researchers preoccupation with "stereotyping" and the persistent tendency of "boys to be boys" i.e. not like girls.

He wonders if "stereotyping" matters but he gets his answer

Yes, say experts

They claim that

rigid expectations based on gender stifle potential, restrict self-expression and fuels workplace discrimination.

We shouldn't think to hard about these "experts" reasoning in light of their own study. They have not asked themselves the glaringly obvious question - why are boys doing poorly in school if "good boys" are

associated with intelligence, ability in maths and being physically strong with an expectation to be good at sport.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/12/08/boys-will-be-boys-why-gender-attitudes-of-todays-schoolchildren-are-remarkably-traditional/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Syrian%20rebels%20say%20president%20Bashar%20al-Assad%20has%20been%20overthrown&utm_campaign=morning_briefing_digest

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122933076#Comment_122933076

No, a fairly large Dublin suburb

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122932565#Comment_122932565

We would regard it as ludicrous and wrong if the colleges and workplaces the kids go on to enter were forcibly gender segregated.

DayInTheBog

My lad is in a mixed school. The sexes keep to themselves

Dickie10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122932600#Comment_122932600

they were a mix of private and public but the elephant in the room is that these schools were all aimed at middle class families. in most towns over 10,000 there will be at least two schools sometimes a single sex girls and mixed community or two single sex and one mixed, the mixed seems to attract students from families who dont put much store on education, thus straight away the single sex schools have a big proportion of students who know if they get in trouble at school at home there are going to be consequences. when you have 20 kids in a class of 23 like that the job gets much easier straight away.

Dickie10

the easiest thing is have choice for people, if we force mixing all you will get is elite schools where students who are not very academic will get hard to get in or just wont be attracted to that type of school and the other school in the town will become a sink school like a sink estate. and as time goes on the scramble among middle classes to get into the acadmeic school will get worse so the school will be able to pick and choose because they now have the cream of academic boys now as well as girls

Treppen

This is the last of education's worries. Same as Newstalk running a campaign all week about getting rid of addressing teachers with Mr Mrs Miss Sir etc.

Dickie10

i see the Feeder schools league table articles make for interesting viewing, how many counties were the top school an all girls school,, is there any particular reasons for why they dominate the first 3 or 4 places in pretty much every county? Louth has 3 in the top 4 the other school, is kind of an further education place in dundalk