Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Clearly the javelin and other western supplied weapons do have a place on the battlefield I saw recently the Russians have produced a leaflet for their own troopers to instruct them on how to use the javelin in combat.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789487#Comment_118789487

Speculation: This seemed inevitable. That being a given, is it possible the Ukrainians are planning to use what forces they have left in the south to attack the force after it lands and or is in the process of landing? This type of argument goes back to the D Day landings and disagreements about how to handle the inevitable second front in the west - without blurbing too much (unless requested to do this)

• One group argued to prevent the landing by destroying it at sea, and while actually in process of landing (fight on beaches)
• The other favored allowing the force to land, and then annihilating it - (fight after beaches)
• The Ukraine has captured quite a lot of equipment (reports vary on twitter but certainly tanks, artillery, and even some thermobarics) - they could be used to great effect here
• All speculation - happy to be slapped by someone with military expertise
• This landing may be the jewel in the crown for Russia - 'Proud Russians storming the beaches of Odessa to fight fascists'- goes without saying it would be CATASTROPHIC if footage of the landing being obliterated were to make its way to the motherland (as it invariably would)
• A Jewel Russian Set piece Failure would look disastrous domestically

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789526#Comment_118789526

Supposedly the Ukrainians have mined the beaches in/around Odessa. Also a beach landing in an urban setting would be a bloodbath - you would think they'd have more sense than to land near the cities

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789451#Comment_118789451

Here's another one for you that references the book by Fiona Hill, who I think is reasonably recognised as a subject matter expert when it comes to Putin and Ukraine.

He was posted to the KGB office in Dresden, East Germany, where he endured the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 as a personal tragedy. As the world’s television screens blared out the news of the Cold War’s end, Putin and his KGB comrades in the doomed Soviet satellite state were frantically burning all of their files, making calls to Moscow that were never returned, fearing for their lives and their careers. For KGB operatives, this was not a time of rejoicing, but rather a lesson about the nature of street movements and the power of rhetoric: democratic rhetoric, antiauthoritarian rhetoric, anti-totalitarian rhetoric. Putin, like his role model Yuri Andropov, who was the Soviet ambassador to Hungary during the 1956 revolution there, concluded from that period that spontaneity is dangerous. Protest is dangerous. Talk of democracy and political change is dangerous. To keep them from spreading, Russia’s rulers must maintain careful control over the life of the nation. Markets cannot be genuinely open; elections cannot be unpredictable; dissent must be carefully “managed” through legal pressure, public propaganda, and, if necessary, targeted violence.

Putin’s position is extremely precarious. Despite all of that power and all of that money, despite total control over the information space and total domination of the political space, Putin must know, at some level, that he is an illegitimate leader. He has never won a fair election, and he has never campaigned in a contest that he could lose. He knows that the political system he helped create is profoundly unfair, that his regime not only runs the country but owns it, making economic and foreign-policy decisions that are designed to benefit the companies from which he and his inner circle personally profit. He knows that the institutions of the state exist not to serve the Russian people, but to steal from them. He knows that this system works very well for a few rich people, but very badly for everyone else. He knows, in other words, that one day, prodemocracy activists of the kind he saw in Dresden might come for him too.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789541#Comment_118789541

Not a military expert at all - but yes from my book based knowledge (armchair general if you will) - i would assume it could be a disaster. The fact they may be about to do it before their land based counterparts reach the city is baffling.

I just wondered whether what Ukrainian guns remain in the area would have their ranges set to shell the beaches as soon as Russian forces set foot on them. I think a 'beach storming in Odessa' is definitely a set piece for the Putin Regime. Images of Russian soldiers landing to liberate the city would look good on the front cover of TASS

Less so, if they are subject to an artillery barrage moments later

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789391#Comment_118789391

He wasn't Irish

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789509#Comment_118789509

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.

I'm going to side with the Indian general on this one Ody, sorry. It's not really a game changer, considering what they are up against. Nice little weapon though all the same.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789590#Comment_118789590

I said Irish citizen. RTE are reporting that he was.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785996#Comment_118785996

Torture is always morally wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789487#Comment_118789487

Going by the past few weeks, they will just force conscripts to walk across the beach to create a path.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789208#Comment_118789208

When you state what “we” can say are you speaking for everyone on the thread?

I don’t think “we” can say anything with “categoric certainty” two weeks into a war.

Information emerges about conflicts long after they are over that can change perspectives, never mind two weeks in. 17 days after the Nazi invasion of Poland, the Soviets invaded as per their secret pact. This would certainly have changed the perspective of the war people held just days before

You state:

“We can also discuss the actions of Russia and their operatives in Donbas or the annexation of Crimea among lots of other actions undertaken by Russia to undermine Ukrainian independence.”

But cannot discuss the actions of Ukraine and their operatives in the Donbas region, most notably the Azov brigade?

Can we discuss the involvement of the US in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Ukraine? Or only Russia actions to undermine Ukraine?

The two quotes provided

“But, but what about the Nazis”

and

”What about the bad things Ukraine did in the past”

I don’t believe either of these appear anywhere in the thread.

Nationalism and in parts Nazism are part of the discussion. Both in terms of Russia and Ukraine

If “we” are to discuss the Russian invasion in 2022, the seizure of Crimea and conflict in Donbas are integral to that discussion.

If we are discussing the conflict from 2014 it seems strange to forbid discussion of alleged war crimes of one side while allowing many pages of posts on the alleged war crimes of the other. Innocent victims are being killed, disproportionate numbers of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being killed right now but anyone who has committed atrocities during this conflict should face justice.

RIP to Irish journalist Pierre Zakrzewski.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789224#Comment_118789224

If we take Putins speeches as the outline of the reasons for the Russian invasion of Ukraine then we would have to conclude the aim was the denazification of the country. However that has been ruled out.

fryup

Any chance the CIA have intel within the Kremlin?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789473#Comment_118789473

The Ukrainians have destroyed at least 200 Russian tanks (confirmed). In 3 weeks. That's more main battle tanks than most global armies have. Many of those kills are from anti-tank weapons like Javelins.

The Russians fear these weapons so much they are building cages on top of their tanks (with very limited effect), or just running away and leaving the tanks for the Ukrainians to take (Ukrainians have captured nearly 100 tanks in 20 days)

Yes Russia does have a lot of tanks and aircraft, but you give an infantry-man man a Javelin, he can take out a tank, you give him an handheld anti-air missile, he can take out helicopters and aircraft.

Ukraine has an army of almost 200,000. A massive influx of Ukrainian expats and foreign fighters, and it has nearly a million reservists. And thousands upon thousands of anti-tank and anti-air weapons flooding in. You can do the math, and see why Russia is worried.

It's not a toy, it's a key factor as to why 55% of the entire Russian military machine is stalled inside Ukraine.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789689#Comment_118789689

They seem to have decent intelligence on Russia. On top of that Russia seems to be quite sloppy on comms, the call to Kadyrov about the invasion was intercepted. Apparently a certain amount Russian military comms during the current invasion aren't encrypted.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789689#Comment_118789689

Undoubtedly; whether it's of use to Ukraine is another matter. Heck I'd imagine some info is so "fly on the wall" and within the Moscow Brain Trust, it'd immediately burn the source were it to be used.

odyssey06

...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789632#Comment_118789632

Strange isn't, that the poster who should it was pointless and meangingless to discuss Russian war crimes wants to discuss Ukranian ones?

"You or I are not in a position to call this a war crime from our positions thousands of miles to the west, in the safety of our own homes."

Your posts are just exercises in relativism and deliberate muddying of the waters in a textbox example of "both sides" fallacy.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789791#Comment_118789791

I agree with the Indian general.

But I respect your opinion.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789802#Comment_118789802

According to one blogger i follow (linked yesterday) the Russians are using standard OFF THE SHELF radios. If you have a radio in Ukraine you can effectively listen to their communications. Could explain the various ambushes we have been seeing.

ALSO - more comical is the fact that HAM Radio operators in Ukraine, have been

• Playing loud music on frequencies used by Russian units (and seeking them out when they shift frequency)
• Screaming abuse and obscenities at them day and night

Rejoice at the incompetence of ones enemies

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789632#Comment_118789632

The uprising in 2014 was a Ukrainian uprising - the notion that it was a "US backed coup" is Russian propaganda.

Russia annexed Crimea and fomented a proxy war in South East Ukraine that has resulted in the deaths of 10's of thousands. The fact that you minimize that in order to maximize "concerns" you have about a battalion that makes up around 0.1% of the Ukrainian armed forces is again very similar to Putin's propaganda.

You seem to keep wanting to give Putin's propaganda oxygen under the guise of the "both sides" trope.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789831#Comment_118789831

Just to be clear Ody.

I have condemned ALL war crimes, ALL deaths of civilians whether committed by Russians or the Azov battalion.

YOU are the poster claiming the high moral ground while defending the alleged war crimes of white supremacists.

Can you still not condemn them? You have been asked four times and refused.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789849#Comment_118789849

Russia good America bad ,

Like when Russia bombed the maternity hospital it was Played down and blamed on the Azoz batillion (surprise ,surprise ) what about Afghanistan.

Detract , deflection , derail

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789896#Comment_118789896

What Russian war crimes have you condemned? Specific actual instances. Lets get an idea from you of the scale of Russian war crimes you accept to balance this one allegation v Ukraine you seem to have taken such a deep and abiding interest in.

Strange you only seem to raise the Ukranian ones. Sorry alleged Ukranian ones. Which we cant condemn as war crimes until they have been found to be war crimes by the ICC. That was the petard you have hoisted yourself on. The smokescreen you threw up to deflect deny and excuse russian war crimes has blown back in your face. Any allegation of war crimes from you rings hollow after that.

It betrays your posts as an obvious attempt to portray Ukraine as just as bad as Russia and not worthy of support by Western nations.

Ukraine has the moral high ground. Thats all that matters.

Despite the worst efforts of various pro russian propagandists and their lies, whataboutery, disinformation, both sides fallacies, muddying the waters and relativism.

liamtech

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/03/russian-navy-landing-ships-seen-approaching-ukrainian-coast-near-odessa/

Im kinda desperate for information on this. Havent seen anything very concrete yet. This 'naval news' site seem to be speculating on the naval disposition in the region off the coast from Odessa - but i have yet to see any news bulletin on it (checked france24, BBC, and Sky) - has anyone seen anything concrete?

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789224#Comment_118789224

+1 to this ^

I agree with odyssey06, the poster referenced has *zero* credibility. Much of what he posts is simply parroting Russian propaganda.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789941#Comment_118789941

Very good post.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789941#Comment_118789941

5 paragraphs and still you can’t condemn the crimes of the white supremacists.

I condemn all the many Russian war crimes. From the deliberate bombing of hospitals and civilians to the targeting of civilians. All of them, every single one.

Now how about you?

Do you also condemn All the war crimes committed including those of the Azov battalion? That’s five times now.

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789401#Comment_118789401

This is extraordinary, sickening nonsense.

Once more, for the uneducated, the Russian invasion of a sovereign, independent nation is a murderous criminal act by an evil despot.

This cannot be stated often enough. Much of the rest of the world has joined together to fight Russia with economic sanctions and in the case of the US and European nations, helping Ukraine with armaments to defend its people against a cruel dictatorship.

Dohnjoe

Amazing how accurate this guy's prediction was

https://twitter.com/SDyorin/status/1503626407309713411

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790009#Comment_118790009

You never even responded to any of the content in my post?

You just went off on a rant about things I never even mentioned.