Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790008#Comment_118790008

Nope. Not going to play your game. Because thats what it is. A game.

No question from somebody who changes their tune so dramatically from post to post can be taken sincerely.

The jig is up. You are holed below the waterline.

Your attempts to both sides this conflict have failed.

You arent swaying anyone. The more you try to push this narrative of Ukraine just as bad as Russia the more transparent it becomes because it has no foundation or merit. Because the truth will out.

Ukraine as a country were trying to pull themselves out of the clutches of Russian corruption and exploitation, and the deep scars of Soviet era. Embarking on the path of freedom like Poland etc towards becoming an equal member of the EU. Russia is trying to pull it back into gangster corruption, into vassal status, into tyranny. Those are the stakes. And thats what I condemn. And those who give cover to Russia in that invasion.

Ukraine has the moral high ground.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790052#Comment_118790052

If you think war crimes are a “game” as long as they are permitted by the right side it’s not a moral or consistent position.

I am not at all saying one side is as bad as the other. Russian crimes and atrocities are legion. They are the aggressor in an illegal war.

However that does not exonerate the Azov battalion from the crimes they are alleged to have committed.

You are not on the side of right or justice or morality. You support “your side” right or wrong.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782318#Comment_118782318

They are not saying it explicitly, but the swing from refusing to condemn Russia after the Crimean annexation to calling for the expelling of the Russian ambassador is a big one.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790008#Comment_118790008

And yet your supposed evidence from the UN mentioned the Azoz batillion once ,but most of the warcrimes were committed by the Russians separatists,

Are you only going by the Kremlin claims because they couldn't defeat the Azoz batillion in Mariupol 8 years ago

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782559#Comment_118782559

The awful truth will emanate less from the dead bodies than from the much larger numbers of young lads arriving home with horrific burns and legs and arms missing, not to mention able-bodied soldiers who have seen things or have done things under orders.They will talk...if they can still talk.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790052#Comment_118790052

It is a game. And its a game in which no matter how many times, SafeSurfer is knocked to the ground. He will

• get back up,
• claim victory by glibly assuring you that you have missed his point (you have not @odyssey06 - he has no point)
• distort and redirect the debate elsewhere
• what he says is either True but Irrelevant
• Or Relevant but untrue
• I said it last night and i say it again. He has lost the argument, but his view is so distorted he doesn't realize it. He never will
• it is beyond bad faith. Its a glib tactic of deflection.

no matter how many times this happens - he will keep coming back. NEVER ARGUE WITH STUPID PEOPLE. THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE - Mark Twain

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790044#Comment_118790044

Answer these points then:

A. You claimed "Yes, this general is not swallowing the western propaganda about this war"

What western propaganda is this? Who is generating the propaganda?

B. You claimed, (without providing any basis for the claim) "western leaders are more interested in using Ukraine to make Russia look bad"

Which western leaders are doing this - what statement/action/inaction by any of the leaders are evidence of attempts to "make Russia look bad"?

(In My Opinion, Russia is doing a heck of an excellent job in making ITSELF look bad. No Western input needed whatsoever...)

C. You claimed "... I think it may result in a far less favorable deal for Ukraine than they might have gotten from Moscow prior to the conflict."

Provide backup for your claim. What "favourable" deal was Putin going to give to Ukraine before the "conflict", as you put it.

Note: It is much more accurately described as an illegal criminal murderous war... In My Opinion.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782675#Comment_118782675

Actions speak louder than intentions or labels. We keep hearing from the Putin aplogists about Ukrainian neo-naxis or the Azov battalion but these are words whereas in the shape of the paramilitary or security groups like Rosvgardia or FSB that are abducting Ukrainian mayors and officials that won't cooperate with the occupation we see deeds. If you act like an agent of the Gestapo or the OGPU then it doesn't matter what you are called, you are an agent of tyranny, of despotism.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790094#Comment_118790094

Your denying it Gatling? Then again you were denying that Azov have any foreign fighters too.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790162#Comment_118790162

There's is thousands of foreign fighters in Ukraine ,

And tens of thousands of russians .

Where did I deny it ,I didn't

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790127#Comment_118790127

A: We know in all wars that both sides spread propaganda.

I never claimed that I was providing proof of propaganda. I simply said that I agree with the Indian general, that I do not believe the western narrative about the progress of this war thus far.

But of course, naturally, I could be proven completely wrong on this. As could the Indian general. We will simply have to wait and see.

B: Again just an opinion. I do not think arming a country like Ukraine with expensive weapons, and training them so that they think they can win a war against Russia, is something that you should be doing if you have Ukraine's best interest at heart. I think there were better options on the table to western powers.

Again, you are more than welcome to disagree with me on this. But I think America and other western nations are simply setting Ukraine up for a very nasty fate in the end. This is where I agree with the Indian general, I think this is all giving Ukraine false hope, and prolonging the war. Causing far more bloodshed. And ultimately the same result in the end.

I think something similar is going on with Taiwan as well. But that is a discussion for a different thread. I disagree with the western approach to these regional disputes. I don't think their approach is working quite frankly.

C: I think Ukraine will lose this war, and they will end up with less of their country as a result in the end.

It's just my opinion, but I think they could have held onto more of their country had they managed to avoid the war. But obviously, in either scenario, they would have had to accept terms that they were not completely happy with.

I don't really see how the west can really help them as this point. Whoever wins a war, typically calls the shots to a large degree. So I think Russia's terms will be less favorable if they come out as winners in this war.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790116#Comment_118790116

@liamtech

Mark Twain never said that but I take your point about arguing with stupid people.

Dufflecoat Fanny

Lemming

I see that SOP for the residents of Olinga is still going strong; generate as much redundant noise as possible in an attempt to drown out any factual information in the mire of mud.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790078#Comment_118790078

Nowhere did I say war crimes were a game. That is a deliberate misrepesentation.

Russias war crimes are legion. The same Russian war crimes you refused to accept a few pages back! And yet have multiple posts about this specific allegation and none alleging specific Russian ones. Your posts are simply not credible. That is the game that is up. Checkmate.

I support the right side. And right now those fighting for Ukraine are on the right side. What the battalion may or may not have done in the past - and as Gatling points out this is very much in doubt - they are now serving their time for it on the frontline. If they are guilty of crimes in the past they may pay that debt in blood in an honourable cause. Fighting against an invasion that is a war crime that dwarfs anything they may have done.

There is a hierarchy of crimes and evil. Condemning past Soviet crimes in July 1940 when Germany presented a far greater threat to life and world peace would have served no purpose.

So I yield the moral high ground to no one, or adopt the foolish consistency you seek to spread in a blatant attempt to muddy the waters between Ukraine and Russia.

Russias war crimes are legion but lets not mentin them. Whatabout this thing this Ukraine battalion may have done! That is someone whose moral compass is fried and cant see the wood for the trees.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785433#Comment_118785433

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785413#Comment_118785413

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784964#Comment_118784964

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785249#Comment_118785249

There is the exchange there Gatling. You denied there were any foreign fighters in the Azov battalion.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790381#Comment_118790381

No read again .

I never denied it

I'm moving on ,

this is a silly attempt to get mod action.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790370#Comment_118790370

Is that what you believe in?

A hierarchy of evil therefore a hierarchy of victims.

How about human rights and the equality of all people.

It is incredible that decent people should find themselves defending neo Nazis as long as they are on the right side.

The kind of people who might raise an eyebrow at the 1916 proclamations mention of “gallant allies in Europe” and would certainly condemn IRA collaboration with the NAZIS in WWII.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790441#Comment_118790441

Don’t obfuscate Gatling. I said there were fighters from 22 countries. You said this was nonsense that they were Ukrainians.

Its there in black and white!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790444#Comment_118790444

Russias war crimes are legion but lets not mention them. Whatabout this thing this Ukraine battalion may have done! That is someone whose moral compass is fried and cant see the wood for the trees yet waffles on about human rights. While Russia commits vast human rights abuses and the only condemnation of them had to be dragged out of you by other posters.

All decent people can see that Ukraine has the moral high ground here.

It is incredible someone says Russias war crimes are legion yet has many more posts about past allegations by one Ukranian battalion.

Even more incredible when just a few pages back they wouldnt accept any russian war crimes without an ICC conviction? What party line changed since then I wonder?

And you talk of decency?

Those parroting Russian propaganda cues every chance they get need to look at themselves in the mirror. There will be many more victims if Russian propaganda spreads unchecked. So stop being a party to it.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790489#Comment_118790489

After I said they were UKRAINIANS defending Ukraine .

After key word ......

It doesn't matter what some battalion did 8 years ago. Now they are defending their country against an illegal invasion. Of course they are on the right side.

If Ireland was invaded by Britain tomorrow, it wouldn't matter if dissident republicans were fighting for Ireland. Irrelevant.

The amount of lads on here with a serious horn for Putin is amazing.

goldenmick

@SafeSurfer - I take your point about arguing with stupid people.

He was talking about YOU.

Do you actually comprehend or absorb what anyone says on here?...

Thick skinned would be the polite way of putting it.

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790274#Comment_118790274

Well, we agree on one point, sadly I am also of the opinion that Ukraine will lose the fight against Russia.

What becomes of the unfortunate Ukrainian people is anyone's guess, but it can reasonably be expected that the Russian jackboot will be pressing on their collective throats. Putin has clearly stated prior to the invasion that Ukraine is not a real country, therefore it is, again, reasonable to assume Russia will simply dissolve the Ukrainian state and make the constituent parts into Russian republics.

By the way, you failed to provide any backup to your opinion about Western leaders interest in making Russia look bad.

Which western leaders are doing this - what statement/action/inaction by any of the leaders are evidence of attempts to "make Russia look bad"?

You do raise a question I've been pondering myself - is it better to submit to threats and unreasonable demands from Russian murderous thugs than to assert a nation's right to self determination, even if that means taking up arms to defend yourself. History would suggest that appeasing thuggish threats from belligerent states never ends well.

AMKC

Where do these big rockets that Russia are firing at the buildings come from? Is it from Russia itself or from some of there army vehicles in Ukraine? The one that leveled that building a week or two ago. Did that come from Russia?

Manach

Offhand, Russia is one of the leading arms manufacturers supplying weapons to many former Warsaw Pact members and to countries with which it has a friendly relationship with such as India. So the missles were of Russian manufacture (albeit of Russian design is open to question based on their intelligence services noted stealing of other nations IP).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790274#Comment_118790274

You need to define what you mean by win though. The Russians will probably occupy Kiev at some point but they'll find it extremely hard to keep it. To occupy a country of 44 million people you need a certain degree of "buy-in" from the locals. Even in Eastern Ukraine there doesn't appear to many people who want to be Quisling type leaders and work with the Russians, this may change but right now it looks like Russia has torched even the goodwill from ethnically Russian Ukrainians towards them.

Putin is an idiot when the far easier path for him was to out-wait Zelensky and have his own person elected, like they are trying to do elsewhere in Europe. Zelensky wasn't even that popular with Ukrainians prior to this fiasco on Russia's part.

It's going to be extraordinarily difficult for Russia to win the peace part of this war.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790795#Comment_118790795

They have rocket launchers in Belarus that fire a rocket with a range of around 500 km but recently I have seen video footage of this particular rocket system being deployed in Ukraine they also have smaller trucks with rockets but these would do more damage to buildings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-30_Smerch

This is the one that is deployed in Belarus and fires into targets in Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K720_Iskander

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790737#Comment_118790737

Its a massive question - the military one i mean. My heart says Ukraine CAN ACCOMPLISH THE IMPOSSIBLE HERE. But my head worries that this is going to get worse. And in fact worse may not be a sufficient word. Im genuinely imagining a Battle of Stalingrad/Warsaw Uprising type situation. Except this time the fighting will be on twitter for the world to see.

With a caveat that some of this is political/military speculation: Let me discuss Kyiv as an example.

An argument for Ukraine to win:

• They have had 20 odd days to prepare. I have seen some tell tail signs that Kyiv is littered with amo dumps
• We have seen that trenches are being dug IN THE CITY, and covered up to make it that they cannot be seen from the sky's.
• They know the terrain, the streets. They undoubtedly have traps set, and fall back positions.
• They may well intend to draw in the Russian tanks and infantry. Tanks (as we have all seen on twitter lately - words i never expected to type), are not very effective in urban areas. They are moving slowly down a road. Can be picked off readily by someone with an NLAW.
• Debris from the aforementioned tanks, build up in the street. The Russians wont be able to see a thing, especially if there are fires ranging in the buildings.
• Infantry likewise will be bogged down. Ideal terrain for snipers.
• Russian Artillery will be nullified at this stage. They will not be able to shell Kyiv if their OWN TROOPS are making there way through it.
• Air support is possible but difficult. Stinger wielding Ukrainians can appear in a building and fire taking out choppers.

So Russia will be left slowly brawling its way through the city. Can they win. Yes; Will they win - Pains me to say but yes, they probably can. BUT: Russia - At what cost?

We can only speculate at the Russian situation. Moscow's 'All Clear, everything is going well' is comical at this stage. WE DO KNOW THAT

• Many Russians have surrendered or deserted
• Others may not have come face to face with 'the enemy' - this will not be Syria, or Afghanistan - This is SLAVIC BROTHERS - protecting their families -
• Many commanding officers of the Red Russian Army have been assassinated by Ukrainians - I said previously that a group of Russian soldiers lead by a willing and skilled commander, is a fighting unit. A group of Russians with NO CO - may honestly be wondering a few things (what am i doing here? These people are not NAZIs. WT*)
• Logistics are widely being reported as having nearly collapsed for the Red Russian Army. I dont think it speculative to suggest morale 'may not be at its best' - If the reports that they are asking China to supply field rations (seeming the Red Russian army's supply is past its Use-By-Date) - then these soldiers may not be fed.
• Finally, Yes Putin could order an all out bombing campaign. But again, can we truly say categorically that those orders will be carried out effectively? Aside from technical difficulties facing the Russian military as a result of poor planning and logistics - this is Kyiv - this is not Syria, or Afghanistan, or Georgia - Its a city most Russians consider friendly and kindred -

The 'Other Front' - Soft power

• At the risk of sounding like a broken record - the Kremlin IS a broken record now.
• The world no longer takes their ramblings seriously.
• They have been sanctioned and economically crucified
• They have been ostracized by every sane/rational actor on the global scene
• The entire world is Arming the Ukrainians
• Reports on the true nature of this misadventure are leaking out.

Anyway look - i dont know - i never thought i would see the likes of this outside of a WW2 movie - and its harrowing - we just have to wait and see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790705#Comment_118790705

@goldenmick with all i have said recently RE the poster in question (questioning merit, tactics, view of reality, bad faith) - he comments on this Twain-ism alone - beyond belief -