Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796575#Comment_118796575

'And this is the reason there is very little point in me giving you alternative sources.' from your post

No no there is a reason. This is a thread where most people do actually back up what they are saying. You say the Russians arent monsters - i provided several links as have others - demonstrating that if they are not ACTUALLY monsters, they are doing a very good of acting as such.

You disagree - fine - evidence? You refuse to provide any

While i never stated the Ukrainians are saints - i have not seen evidence of war crimes - the Russians claim they have done so - and you seem to doubt the Ukrainian position, while sincerely believing in the Russians - Do you have any Evidence? You refuse to provide any

If you buy into that rhetoric from the beginning, you are easy prey for anyone selling you interpretations that support this narrative. Which is why so many people easily believe stuff like "the ghost of Kiev" or "snake-Island" etc etc. You desperately WANT it to be true, which is not a good foundation when thinking critically or interpreting things.

@Shao Kahn - Its almost pointless to explain this but here goes nothing. I believe things based ON EVIDENCE. The EVIDENCE suggested that the Snake Island Ukrainians were dead. Yes i believed that. When FURTHER EVIDENCE was presented that some of them were taken alive? Guess what happened? My position CHANGED. Thats the beauty of asking for evidence. you make up your mind, based on it. And you can CHANGE your mind based on it

The alternative to this method: is to disbelieve everything one hears, and make a fool of ones self on a public forum. And make grandiose statements about how one is right, and everyone else is wrong. And when one is asked for Evidence - one can reply

'there is very little point in me giving you alternative sources.' aka - You refuse to provide any

If you can provide EVIDENCE to back up what you are saying - Do so - otherwise everything you say is simply hollow and meaningless

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796575#Comment_118796575

The Ghost of Kyiv is a propaganda story. The incident with the soldiers on Snake Island is true, however since communications were lost, it was assumed they died. New information came to light that they were captured.

Ukraine is being invaded, their country, territorial integrity, homes, families, lives are being directly threatened. Morale and resolve are critical to their survival, it's vital that the government and armed forces keep up that morale. As such, they have a tendency to exaggerate successes and minimize failures. We know this. It's common throughout history.

To give just one example, the Ua govt release numbers of Russian vehicles/etc that have been destroyed/captured. These figures are typically over-inflated. They are reported, but in war-time that's taken with a pinch of salt. Independent observers however release more accurate numbers (i.e. only figures that have been visually verified by photo/video, no duplicates).

Ukrainians are being invaded and slaughtered by a vast force in an illegal war based on lies - naturally people feel for them and are supportive of them. Likewise, most people feel frustration or anger with invaders.

The fact that some individuals are hugely concerned by insignificant things in context of what's happening, like Zelensky's political career, or a story that didn't turn out to be 100% true, whilst being largely unconcerned that people are being blown to bits, or just paying obvious lip-service to it, is bizarre at best, a serious red flag at worst.

This forum has had it's fair share pro-Putin supporters and fanatical anti-Western posters over the years, they haven't all just disappeared. Obviously these individuals can't directly support Russia or make excuses for Putin anymore, but I have noticed that several have modified their approach, and they instead focus on criticising Ukraine when and where possible, casting doubt on Western-centric reports on the war as much as possible, etc. Perhaps they think it's subtle, but it's not.

Brussels Sprout

The fact that some individuals are hugely concerned by insignificant things in context of what's happening, like Zelensky's political career, or a story that didn't turn out to be 100% true, whilst being largely unconcerned that people are being blown to bits, or just paying obvious lip-service to it, is bizarre at best, a serious red flag at worst.

+1,000,000

Danzy

The proof that Putin expected a quick victory was the time he invaded.

A few short weeks and most of the Ukraine is a muddy mess, right on schedule.

His army limited to the road, while the Ukraine forces run across country.

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796231#Comment_118796231

+1 to this ^

The posts by @Shao Kahn are indeed fact-free, and appear to be based on some undefined feeling only.

The facts are reasonably clear and are available nightly on Irish television, Russian forces are not making rapid progress on occupying Ukraine, despite definite superior numbers, air power, military materiel. Even the Russian military are admitting substantial casualties. It does seem that Putin was not expecting stout resistance and thought that Ukraine could be steam-rollered in days. Now the Russians are stalled, which must raise fears that the brutal tactics employed in Syria by Russian forces will be repeated in Ukraine even to the point of using chemical weapons. Why else would Russian Defence minister Sergei Shoigu make outlandish claims that the US were going to use chemical weapons in Ukraine?

Podge_irl

The only people pushing a "saint-like narrative" about Zelensky or the Ukrainian people are those who want to then performatively deny its veracity in a rather pathetic attempt to appear more knowledgeable and sensible. Also, believing in an unassailable truth is not in fact the only alternative to performatively refusing to believe in the veracity of anything.

The broad strokes - Russia is unmeritoriously invading Ukraine and committing atrocities in the process - is true. There is a general consensus among experts that Russia were aiming for quick invasion and collapse of the Ukrainian forces. It may not be completely accurate, but there is a weight of evidence and experience suggesting it is true. Again, performatively dismissing "western propaganda" as if to equate it with the verifiable nonsense coming out of Russia is intellectually barren.

Interesting and timely explanation of the echo chamber effect, where people exclusively consume one-sided propaganda and therefore have a false understanding of events.

The overall tone of the video and narrator is very much supportive of Ukraine so it's not a "Putin-bot".

Ukraine Fog of War: What's Really Happening? - YouTube

His previous videos are very good also, he debunked weeks ago some of the nonsense that echo-chamber victims are still parroting.

odyssey06

@Dohnjoe

"The fact that some individuals are hugely concerned by insignificant things in context of what's happening, like Zelensky's political career, or a story that didn't turn out to be 100% true, whilst being largely unconcerned that people are being blown to bits, or just paying obvious lip-service to it, is bizarre at best, a serious red flag at worst."

Yep you nailed it there. Red flags on several levels!

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797178#Comment_118797178

Yet more amoral piffle and drivel.

You really are sounding like an apologist for Russian war criminals. I'm reasonably sure that can't be true, but seriously have a look at your opinions and tell us, honestly, that you are not consistently pushing a pro-Russian line in everything you post...

liamtech

The False Expectation of Balance in the Post Truth Reality

Iv been struggling for days to try and understand the views expressed by some on this thread. Just some thoughts on this

• Twenty odd years of disastrous Western Foreign Policy has taken a toll. I certainly opposed the War in Iraq, as i am sure many did. The world watched while the US screamed about WMD's and 'Nuclear Threats' - Certainly it did help that many questioned this nonsense. But i think the seed of post truth began there. Such that now, false equivalencies and invalid analogies are being thrown on the table like trump cards.
• Iraq, despotic islamo-fascist regime that it was. Is not the same as the Ukraine, a democracy, struggling yes, but making excellent progress. The US, a democracy with turbulent internal political struggles, and main stream media bias on all sides. Is not the same as Russia, Totalitarian state in all but name, where 'official media' simply spouts state authorized garbage to the masses. Facts are facts. I state it clearly and unequivocally. but for some, i may sound like a brainwashed fool. To them, the equivalency is real. To me it is clearly, and factually not.
• The media shares a big blame here. Western Media, while covering both sides, did air a lot of Pro-Iraq War nonsense during the period cited above. And while they also aired the growing opposition to it, this only served to emphasize a strange new world we were living in. The government says one thing - prudent to believe otherwise. While i did not endorse this message per say, i can see that some did. So now twenty years later. The Governments, and Western Media, TELL US, that this war is pointless, illegal, immoral, criminal. Some, still running the old operating system; Resist. And view themselves as honorable for doing so. And view me, and many critics of their position here, as unwitting accomplices. They expect to be lied to. They expect some among us to assist. They feel a need to resist.
• The more black and white this situation becomes (theaters and hospitals bombed, the 'Tsar' accusing us of being an empire of lies) - The more these individuals at best, step away. Insist it might be grey, complicated, and they need not take part. At worst, side with the Tsar, equivocate and distort the conflict to actively MAKE IT GREY. The more we argue with them, the more 'evidence they have' that we are pawns, and they are being lied to.
• Add to all of the above, a growing mistrust in Official Opinion - after all some 'officials' disagree with the narrative. Vaccines are endorsed widespread by governments and media. But they lied to us before. Why should 'i' believe? Some British politicians said Brexit would be great, 'Maybe' they are right. Some US Reps claim Trump won the election 'maybe' they are on to something?
• People expect there to be a 'balance' - and therefore they are ACTIVELY SEEKING it. and in some cases, willing it into being. I was accused of confirmation bias RE this conflict. Let me point out that, confirmation bias is a door that swings both ways. But you cannot CREATE balance, it doesnt work that way

Im not smart enough to figure out a solution to this mess. And i dont presume to tell others what to do. All i can tell you is how I PERSONALLY intend to continue

• I will engage with all in good faith and according to my principles
• Some things ARE black and white. If you doubt that, brush up on your history
• Question everything, yes, as i do.
• i will however, insist that if disagreeing with me, on this conflict. You provide evidence in support of your claim
• I will not engage with 'Whataboutery' at all. If you want to point to other conflicts be they historical, or concurrent to this one- there better be a point. The analogy better be valid. And you should be willing to debate IN GOOD FAITH about this.
• What-about Iraq, Palestine, the Irish Potato Famine, will not do. Have a point, back it up with evidence
• Otherwise i will genuinely ignore you. Metaphorically and literally (the ignore button)
• Post Truthing the current situation, is ludicrous - There is one truth, which we can debate. But claiming that this is akin to a 'civil war' - i wont abide it, i wont engage with it.
• I can only speak for myself, but i hate seeing this thread utterly derailed, as has happened a few times in the past few days.

As usually, this is all, IMHO - and off the top of my head - happy to debate

odyssey06

Lots of senior russian officers being killed... I wonder if some of them could be fraggings from Russian troops who dont fancy dying in this war.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796562#Comment_118796562

How about Christoph Waltz?

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798148#Comment_118798148

I know this happened in WW2 . German foot soldiers shot Nazi officers when they were ordered to shoot civilians .I know this first hand from a conscripted soldier .

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798175#Comment_118798175

it is possible - i suspect the Ukrainians would have told us about it, though.

I think it more likely that the Ukrainians are trying to create discord within Russian Ranks. Turn a fighting unit obeying orders into a 'bunch of soldiers' outside the proper chain of command

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797060#Comment_118797060

It seems similar to certain German operations of the Second World War such as the conquest of Crete where German paratroopers seized strategic airfields on the island to faciliate troop transports. Also Operation Market Grden at Arnheim which was a failure, much like the Russian plan.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798160#Comment_118798160

Don't know him.I suppose physical similarities might actually be a disadvantage.

It would certainly be a demanding role.

Gerard Depardieu might be a fun choice.

Maybe Zelensky even when he gets a moment😀

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798187#Comment_118798187

I have heard that Russia's cyber warfare capability is not that great this time round and maybe generals have been using unencrypted phones.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798334#Comment_118798334

They are two separate fields.

Widescale cyber attacks on Ukraine did not come, which initially surprised experts. It was assumed they would cripple the power grid, something they are certainly capable of. However we have subsequently seen that they have no interest in doing so, they have been capturing power stations and keeping them running. (Obviously they are destroying or shutting off some utilies in besieged cities but they're not doing it country-wide.)

Their equipment in the field is a separate thing from their cyber warfare divisions. Indeed it does not seem great, they are reported to be using a mixture of well-encrypted equipment, weakly-encrypted equipment, even off-the-shelf radios and cell phones. Exactly how bad the situation is in this regard we don't know, because their problems - and they do have problems - tend to overstated by Western media for propaganda purposes.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798187#Comment_118798187

Pretty common in the Spanish civil war too. Shooting generals in the hopes the common soldier didn't really have much interest in the war and also treating the largely working class soldiers well to encourage them to stop fighting for the upper class generals.

myfreespirit

It is becoming very evident that Russian forces intend to prosecute their war of terror with flagrant disregard for civilians in Ukraine.

You would have to be fearful that the war crimes will increase in number and severity as the Russian military leadership grow ever more desperate. God help the Ukrainian population.

The question is, though, how are those accused of committing the crimes going to be apprehended and brought to court to face trial? Large powerful states like Russia are unlikely to hand them over for trial, much less, try them at home.

Six countries accuse Russia of war crimes:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/17/kyiv-ukraine-says-moscow-russia-must-accept-ceasefire-as-west-doubts-putin-sincerity

corkie

@myfreespirit

The question is, though, how are those accused of committing the crimes going to be apprehended and brought to court to face trial? Large powerful states like Russia are unlikely to hand them over for trial, much less, try them at home.

The same source you linked, answers your question.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/17/vladimir-putin-war-criminal-ukraine-russia-president-justice

iamwhoiam

Watching the parades on the news tonight and the support for Ukraine in every single one made me cry . Joanne Donnely went to do the weather forecast after it and couldn’t speak

This as upset the whole world and standing by and feeling we are not doing anything to stop it is deeply stressful .

Its like watching bullies beat up a child and not being able to help . Its the helplessness that upsets me

liamtech

https://twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1504517064719048713?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1504517064719048713%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2058195983%2Frussia-threadbanned-users-in-op%2Fp981

Quoted the Taoiseach today - and referenced the fact that Ireland is playing its part (wont lie i shouted 'GET IN!!!!! COME ON!!!!!' when i watched)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798881#Comment_118798881

I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news - And I agree with your analysis that Russia is waging a war of terror - 100%

But if your end goal/aspiration is to see Russian Leadership on trial in the Hague - Its more than likely never going to happen. Russia is never going to allow a (former) to be tried by an international court. They are not actually covered by the ICJ, i think the article mentions this

Russia does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC and would not send any suspects to the court’s headquarters in The Hague, Netherlands -from the article

Punishment, if it comes will more likely be dealt by Russian hands.

Personally i would look at the fate of Romanian Dictator Nikolai Chaushesku (interrupted on stage giving a speech - jeered by the masses - rushed to a chopper, attempted to flee - aprehended - quick bespoke trial (guilt unquestionable) - stood up against a wall (like a common criminal), and shot. That's the fate i am hoping for with regards to Mr Putin

(BTW you can literally view Chaushesku's fate on Youtube - i hope Vladimir does - repeatedly, let it seep in - it happened before and may happen again)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqF4pUumWpw

odyssey06

From that same Biden speech... flanked by the American and Irish flags... CNN reports:

The President emphasized the strength of the relationship between Ireland -- which has never joined NATO -- and the United States, saying during the luncheon that the relationship was "taking on an even more intense and cooperative forum than it ever has because of Ireland's neutrality."

Biden said Ireland is "stepping up" in the face of Russian aggression against Ukraine.

"Ireland and the United States and working together for the first time now," Biden said. "They're on the United Nations Security Council ... and the European Union. And Putin is paying a big price for his aggression, and they are part of the reason the cost is going so high."

"Everybody talks about how Germany having stepped up and changed their notions about being more leaning forward, and they have," he continued. "And so has Ireland. A neutral country, Ireland has stepped up, and they're taking the hit for what they're doing."

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799551#Comment_118799551

It was actually very decent - and true - we have made it clear we are neutral militarily - but we are NOT neutral per say, not politically - it was a decent speech for sure

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798334#Comment_118798334

There were reports that at least one of the Russian generals shot was using a standard Ukrainian mobile phone sim card in his phone ... Which made it easier to trace his whereabouts ..

Early in the war some of the Russians positions were located because the soldiers were logged into tinder on their phones .. ( could be urban myth )

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800198#Comment_118800198

It seems not.

I read an article in the last few days explaining how much of the Russian comms is public network stuff.

They can run a thousand bot farms, but apparently their Army uses paper cups and string.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799211#Comment_118799211

That rally is amazing I've watched videos of it so many times and it has been in my head a lot over the last few weeks too.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118796497#Comment_118796497

This happens in every war though.

Look at how your average Japanese person was depicted in the media during ww2, which helped to build a narrative for the justification to drop 2 atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing 200,000+ innocent civilians.

I'm not trying to say the Japs were a great bunch of lads in ww2, far from it. But it can be dangerous to buy into everything you watch or read during a war.

We know from history, that both sides try to spread propaganda during a war.

And it is perhaps naive to think that all of this propaganda is some sort of harmless effort to show solidarity and support for Ukraine. This is undoubtedly one element of it for sure.

But what if there are far bigger implications behind it?

Like for example, what if we start seeing an increasing narrative that builds support for greater western involvement in Ukraine? We could very well see ourselves sleep walking towards ww3, by unknowingly and unwittingly spreading pro Ukrainian propaganda in people's innocent efforts to show their support for the Ukrainians. That is a very real danger here.

I don't buy the narrative, that Russia are struggling badly and losing in this war. We have a very lob-sided picture in the media, because all the footage coming out is from Ukrainian military successes. I have no doubt that these are real genuine Ukrainian successes against the Russians, but I am far more skeptical of the overarching conclusions being drawn from this.

We know the Russian soldiers, for example, have been forbidden to use smartphones etc during combat operations. So there is a distinct lack of footage from the Russian side in this war.

There are people on the ground in Ukraine, that I know of personally and also anecdotally, who are suggesting that the reports in the media are not matching what they are seeing with their own eyes on the ground. That the Russians are advancing in many cases, often slowly, but that the depiction in the media is that they are stalled or being repelled.

Who is telling the truth? It's obviously impossible to know for certain in the middle of a war.

Does it really matter who is telling the truth?

Well, if propaganda is convincing enough, there can potentially be very dangerous consequences. If enough people can be convinced that Russia are struggling badly, then they may also be convinced of subsequent stories about their desperation and maybe even some of these alleged "false flag" type attacks etc.

That is my big worry here really.

That we sleep walk our way into some sort of justification for this to become a much bigger conflict involving the west, and spilling out of Ukraine possibly even into ww3. Which would be a disaster for the entire world obviously.

Things can and do very often escalate quickly in times of war.

I'm not telling people what to believe or what to think. I'm just saying be very careful about the information you're getting during a war. Try to maintain a healthy amount of skepticism, and an open mind in these dangerous times we are all living in.

Podge_irl

The UK and US defence departments do not draw their conclusions from what they see in "the media".

Who is telling the truth? It's obviously impossible to know for certain in the middle of a war.

It is, however, incredibly easy to know who is consistently and brazenly lying