Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804255#Comment_118804255

Yet more risible nonsense from your good self.

In My Opinion, it truly seems as if you are being paid to make posts like this on western social media outlets? Nothing I have read from you persuades me otherwise.

Fighting Tao

The number of people that fall for Putins made up and ever changing reasons for attacking Ukraine is incredible. It’s like dealing with conspiracy theorists. No matter how much evidence there is against their belief, they have been brainwashed to ignore the evidence. The number of Nazis in Ukraine is not a valid reason for the war as they are a tiny minority.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804673#Comment_118804673

You are correct in relation to the conspiracy theory link as a large number of people who spread them are also spreading Russian propaganda in relation to the Ukraine. A few cyber security researchers I know have been mapping this type of stuff since before covid hit. Apart from the obvious shills doing so for financial reasons and other nationalist and white supremacy groups, you also have people repeating what they get from established media sources like Fox. In the case of the former groups it doesn't fit the narrative or the bottom line to highlight the same groups that exist in Russia, while for the latter they won't believe any evidence because they haven't been told about them or have been told that any reports about them is fake news.

Paulownia

The situation in Ukraine is that civilian men have been asked to volunteer rather than be conscripted, I wonder how that idea arose. Putin on the other hand is conscripting. Ukraine has however banned men of fighting age from leaving

liamtech

https://www.ft.com/content/5efc6338-3f01-4015-aedf-53a4a1944ca8

an unfortunate development

Certainly bound to happen. A lot will depend on China but this is not to be underestimated

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804255#Comment_118804255

Denazification is a ridiculous demand coming from a power that is far more nazi-like than the power it is arttacking. The Putinbots keep going on about the small Azov battalion of far-rightists while Russia maintains a force of thugs called the Wagner group whose leader is an admirer of the SS,complete with tattoos, and that's not to mention the assassinations, murders and repressions. Even ignoring the leadership Russia is infested by far right groups and individuals, like Vladimir Zhirnovsky. Meanwhile Russian media personalities are raving about mass hangings, invasions and destruction like a crowd of yellow pack Goebbels'. The far-right gets around 2% of the vote in Ukraine and has insignificant influence in the government. Pot demanding that the kettle un-blackens itself doesn't even begin to cover it.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804153#Comment_118804153

I seriously doubt that some of Russia's demands were even serious demands. Like requesting that NATO revert back to pre-1997 status etc. Perhaps it's a long term goal, in a changing world where the security infrastructure gets a serious shake up. But they must surely know it's not achievable in the short term from this military operation.

I would imagine they will achieve their core goals of turning Ukraine into a neutral buffer state that can never join NATO etc. Anything beyond that would be an additional bonus in my opinion.

We're going to encounter many more Ukraine type scenarios around the world, if western powers think that we can force everyone to see the world in exactly the same way. Or live by a common set of values.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Putin sees this conflict as a convenient opportunity to remove western influence from Russia. He has made comments in the past, about how he views liberalism as essentially being obsolete and having "outlived its purpose". So perhaps he would like to circle the wagons so to speak, and pull his nation away from the grips of western liberal ideals.

Just look at how sanctions in Iran for 40 odd years, have actually had the effect of turning their nation strongly against western ideals. Rather than turning against their own leadership. I think we could very well see the same effect with sanctions in Russia. And perhaps that might be exactly what Putin is privately hoping to achieve.

I don't think the west is powerful enough to force their values or vision for society on the entire world. We are struggling badly to prevent Russia from exerting control over Ukraine, despite the fact that they are comparatively much weaker than the old Soviet Union.

I can't even begin to imagine how ugly it's going to be, if we try to stop China from exerting control over Taiwan. I think it will pale in comparison to the carnage we are witness right now in Ukraine.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804259#Comment_118804259

Let's look at some examples of the kind of things that were taking place elsewhere around the time of the First World War and the Irish War of Independence and compare them to the behaviour of the British in Ireland to get a sense of perspective. Imperial Russia regarded certain people in the western regions of the empire as unreliable at the start of the war with Germany and deported nearly a million of them into the Russian interior; later during the Russian civil war, after they captured the city of Yaroslavl the Bolsheviks shot 800 of their enemies; In Belgium in 1914 the Germans shot 5000 people for little or no reason and a year later the Turks murdered approximately a million Armenians. We were lucky to be living in Ireland with the colonial masters we had at the time.

Podge_irl

We're going to encounter many more Ukraine type scenarios around the world, if western powers think that we can force everyone to see the world in exactly the same way. Or live by a common set of values.

What an utterly ridiculous and offensive comment. The "western powers" are not the ones trying to force a country to see the world our way. A country that desperately wants to realign itself with the West is being invaded and its people massacred in an attempt to force them back under the fold of Russia.

mikewest

Aaand the Russian trolls are out again with their deflections and bs.

Russia started a war. Russia INVADED Ukraine for no good reason. No whataboutery will change that simple black and white fact.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804953#Comment_118804953

So there's been no western political influence exerted on Russia or Ukraine over the past few decades?

Do you really believe that, or do you just WANT to believe that?

I suppose you also believe there's been no western political influence exerted on China and Taiwan too then?

Or any other regions of the world?

Is it nice living in that fantasy world? lol

McGiver

Most emigrants are pretty clear on Putin and Russian elites' culturally ingrained despotism. They have seen free world and can clearly identify the deep deficits in Russian system of government.

Putin is looking for scapegoats for his fundamental failure just like Stalin

Vitali Ginzburg (Russian entrepreneur in the Czech Republic)

Putin's war, excuse me "The Special Operation", if we can believe it, is going according to plan. Nobody knows what the plan is, what its goals and indicators are. However, this plan seems to have been drawn up on the basis of (to put it mildly) inaccurate data. However, the scapegoats were found immediately. They were generals, of course, because it was clear that they could not be colonels or even captains. It is strange, however, that this ungrateful role was not assigned to army generals, three of whom had already died in Ukraine, but to FSB generals (Russian counterintelligence agency, the successor to the KGB).

It is well known what a similar plan looked like 81 years ago in 1941 and how it turned out. At that time, according to it, the commander of the Western Front, General Pavlov, was shot, because he was accused of not preventing the German army from advancing. He could hardly had done so as had been ordered by Stalin himself not to take any action against the impending enemy invasion. His troops remained calm and did not unnecessarily provoke the Germans. However, the catch was what he was punished for. First, General Pavlov was to be declared a traitor. But then the Leader himself realized that he himself could be blamed for it, so he turned him into a coward. However, the main culprit, Stalin, went unpunished.

And as the saying goes, history repeats itself. The conditions were just not so harsh, so the generals from Lubyanka (the FSB headquarters) only received house arrest. And they were not accused of treason or cowardice, but of embezzling funds intended to bribe residents, etc. Although the truth is that they obviously stole "little bit" anyway.

It is quite clear that Putin's strategic plan has failed. Personally, I don't know any of these generals, but since I think the FSB has the status of a criminal organization, I am safely entitled to write anything. These Putin puppets are responsible for fraud through so-called fabricated agents, theft, negligence and other ways. However, attributing to them the failure of the whole Ukrainian adventure is not only illogical, but also absolutely unprofessional on the part of President Vladimir Putin himself.

There are several aspects to it. These generals used to deal with political intelligence. In this capacity, they were to inform "Putin's godfather" V. Medvedchuk, who has secured access to the Kremlin, that Ukraine longs for liberation from the "Nazis". After all, Putin and his surroundings had been counting on it for eight years since the occupation of Crimea. I know this not from the media, but from my source, who influenced Russian foreign policy.

Next, top-level decisions are never made on the basis of information from a single source, but are usually based on the analysis and evaluation of all verifiable data. Its sources are at least the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the intelligence service, the main command of the General Staff of the Russian Army and the Ministry of the Interior. One of the important principles of intelligence is to verify information from multiple independent sources. I know this not from the Internet, but from my studies at the military academy. How Putin, a graduate of the KGB Red Banner Institute, could totally ignore this, I can't fathom.

From the Kremlin's point of view, the most serious problem today is not a clear negative attitude of the Ukrainian people towards the Russian occupiers, but an incorrect assessment of the potential of Ukraine's armed forces and the state of the Russian army. However, this is not the responsibility of the FSB and its respective departments, but falls under military intelligence and the Russian Ministry of Defence as a whole. In the creation of documents of this kind intended for reports to the President, there is a clearly defined procedure in the FSB for their preparation and verification by analysts, because the report addressed to the head of state must come directly from the FSB Director A. Bortnikov.

There are also departments in the presidential administration that are responsible for controlling what is put on the president's desk, and are mostly made up of FSB officers. Therefore, false information should not reach the president.

There are only two explanations for why this did not happen in this case. Either Putin does not want to know the true information, or in terms of his psychological qualities, he is not able to adequately perceive, analyze and evaluate it. Therefore, it can be logically assumed that the repression launched in the FSB is nothing more than a transfer of Putin's responsibility for failure to his subordinates. Especially those who have been fully involved in the decision-making process and are deeply aware of all the details. And it is precisely this scheme that Colonel General S. Beseda and his subordinates fit into.

Given the current situation in the country and the specifics of Putin's rule based on security forces, the Kremlin ruler's attempt to transfer responsibility for its own mistakes to the FSB will inevitably increase tensions in the country.

The power bloc, which benefited from Putin's government and lost its privileges as a result of his adventures, may try to protect its interests from the president and ensure its own security. It has key information about the depth of the crisis and Putin's level of sanity.

goldenmick

@Shao Kahn - So there's been no western political influence exerted on Russia or Ukraine over the past few decades?

@Shao Kahn - I suppose you also believe there's been no western political influence exerted on China and Taiwan too then?

Even if what you say were true, it's by no means to any greater extent than Russia trying to exert political influence on a whole host of INDEPENDENT countries. You'll note that the key word here is "INDEPENDENT", and as with Ukraine, Taiwan is also an INDEPENDENT country and as such is also entitled to determine its own future. China may court it and the West may court it, but the bottom line is that Taiwan decides.

The way you talk as if countries have their hands twisted behind their backs by Western influence and coercion is laughable.

You need to grow up. You're continually pushing the "bad West" narrative without a solid foundation to your assertions. People here can see right through you which is why you're getting so many angry and irate responses.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804673#Comment_118804673

What people don't realize that the EU (and broadly "the West") have been at war with Russia for a decade at least. Information War.

Most of the West EU leaders ignored it, Germany & South EU leaders continued having very close links with Putin. It was a huge strategic mistake and in most cases deep hypocrisy and cynicism. All that while Russia occupied Georgia, while it waged insurgencies and proxy wars in Ukraine, Syria and also Africa, and internally moved back to authoritarianism worse then the pre-1989 state. USSR had a Committee deciding on a nuclear strike or an invasion. Putin's Russia has one person with obvious psycho-pathologies holding the nuclear button box - one person can order a nuclear strike or an invasion. This is objectively worse than the USSR situation.

The following is the best resource which is analyzing large number of Russian disinformation pieces in detail. Thousands of disinformation pieces just for keyword "Ukraine":

DISINFO DATABASE (euvsdisinfo.eu)

Many of them are so insane that are almost comical...but it achieves the objective of flooding the information space with tons of bollocks and creating an alternate reality where the target stops believing in any facts or truth altogether and essentially denies objective reality.

pixelburp

And so we're back to the attempt to muddy the waters of the situation by claiming the "West" are up to their old tricks of interference in other nations, coupled with the patronising attitude that somehow Ukraine are gullible fools. It's reductive and a total exaggeration; were Ireland somehow the ignorant fools of Nation Games when we started to align ourselves towards the EEC in the 1960s onwards? Of course not, but here? Oh no, it's not Ukraine making intentional steps towards western alignment - it's manipulation, propaganda and (somewhat inevitably) suggestions of corruption at the head of the Ukrainian state. Let's rob the country of its agency because self-loathing seems baked into our continents lifecycle. In the race for abstractiom and complexity we miss the possibility some nations choose to side with us.

The irony in all this is the freedoms afforded to us to allow that divergent opinion in the first instance, while accidentally (or otherwise) trying to rationalise a despotic regime's invasion of an independent nation.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804133#Comment_118804133

this question is for you and anyone else on here who feels they want to answer

if China invades Taiwan do we treat china exactly like we are treating Russia now?

if answer is no than please explain why not?

thank you

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804991#Comment_118804991

Only one country is currently forcing another sovereign state to see the world how it wants, and it is not the "West".

There is something of a wide, gaping chasm of a difference between political and economic influence and rolling tanks into cities, pummelling homes with artillery and murdering thousands and thousands of people.

Is it nice living in your comic book world where "The West" is some archvillain with the agency and ability to try and control the entire planet? Its pathetic.

growleaves

'As for Ireland joining NATO a lot of talk about this from people saying brexit was the best thing since sliced bread, gay and trans people ruined our country, and other fantasist bingo talking points in other threads while most likely being one of the first on a plane out of here if a military situation ever occurred.'

M Martin and L Varadkar have floated it as a serious possibility, and Martin said it could go to a Citizen's Assembly so it doesn't seem that it falls into the partisan frame you've created.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805204#Comment_118805204

Whatabout, whatabout: why do you feel that scenario is even remotely comparable?

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805287#Comment_118805287

answer noted. any other chamberlains on here?

I also believe the next soccer World Cup Should be boycotted by all countries who value human life and democracy

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805325#Comment_118805325

It's your hypothetical, why don't you elaborate on why you think the scenarios are comparable instead of trying to throw a grenade into the conversation. It's not a big ask, especially if you feel the whataboutery is false. You can snark about Chamberlains all you want, but when your'e finished you can explain why the historical complexity of the One China Policy is comparable with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

I'm going to presume an answer of "it's complicated" isn't going to suffice, and you'll just use it as a J'accuse. But. It's complicated, and not morally or politically equivalent. So go on: explain why that's not true.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805334#Comment_118805334

That’s not how it works

you explain to everyone here why Russia invading Ukraine is not comparable to China invading Taiwan or occupying Tibet or what is being done to the Uyghurs has a blind eye turned to by the world including you

it’s hypocrisy because we all know China is a truly dangerous dictatorship who use money to dirty the hands of the west.

they could invade south east Asia tomorrow and people like you will keep your mouths shut because they are the real thing, they are a country like a cult that can break us economically.

its easy preach on Russia, not so easy on China because they truly are coming for us all

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805381#Comment_118805381

Yes that is how it works: the burden of proof is on you, not the rest of us; and don't pretend you asked the question in Good Faith, 'cos you immediately outed yourself the moment you hilariously presumed my position on China. "... including you" says it all really. You obviously don't know my thoughts on China, that much is clear in your response but in a pursuit for an intellectual "Gotcha" by way of moral absolutism, just jumped in with two feet rather than try to embrace the premise of your own question.

You asked about China and Taiwan, you didn't ask about the tragedy of the Uyghurs, Tibet et al. Don't move the goalposts the moment you have the ball passed back to you. The threat of China against the sanctity of the world's democratic norms is greater than Russia's - so maybe you should start a thread about it instead of trying to Score Points because the rest of us are failing your personal barometer of moral absolutism. In the meantime, there's a war going on in the Ukraine to debate about, while what's the likelihood of China invading Taiwan?

So if you don't have a genuine answer about why Taiwan's position within the One China Policy, or the various American warships sailing around the island, might make the situation more complex Russia invading Ukraine, then don't ask the question. Unless of course you also agree with Putin's assessment Ukraine is part of "historical Russia", which I guess does then create a parallel with Taiwan. And don't make the presumption to know someone else's sense of geopolitical morality, or that it MUST be lesser than your own.

busunderer

When all will be said and done Putin will achieve his desired result and Zelensky will have used innocent Ukrainians as his failed defence system.

all the turmoil in Ukraine is futile. Zelensky merely following CIA handler instructions with ugly associated costs.

growleaves

'they could invade south east Asia tomorrow and people like you will keep your mouths shut because they are the real thing'

How do you know that?

In general we're in a bind re China due to coupling of economics and especially manufacturing yeah.

I've always thought globalism was horrible, a massive interdependent system can collapse into famines if anything goes wrong. Would love to see relative self-sufficiency return.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805334#Comment_118805334

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwan

Just FYI to anyone attempting erroneously to compare Russia/Ukraine and China/Taiwan - Anyone attempting to understand why these situation are NOT analogous, please refresh their memory of exactly how, and why the US has a relationship with Taiwan. Also one should ask, WHEN this situation began

Some facts

• Ukraine is a SOVEREIGN STATE recognized at the UN, Taiwan is no longer recognized due to One China Policy
• The US has adopted a 'bespoke' One China policy which differs from Beijing preferred situation - The Relations of the Ukraine are standard State-Actor to State-Actor
• The US has supplied billions of dollars of military hardware to Taiwan for over 50 years. (aircraft, missiles, missile defense systems, naval defense ships) Taiwan has been preparing for a possible attack from the PRC for years - The Ukraine is not a member of any military alliance and only received small scale weapons from the west, prior to this invasion.
• The US leaves 'ambiguous' what they would do should China attempt to Annex Taiwan - see the above 'Taiwan Relations Act'. They 'retain the right to act' should they decide - the US has SPECIFICALLY said they will not intervene militarily RE the Ukraine
• Thanks to continued US support - Taiwan is a fortress - thanks to a LACK of military support, the Ukraine is not

These situations are not analogous - frankly i see no point in claiming they are, or 'demanding' that those of us arguing and debating in good faith, provide explanations. To do so implies the burden of proof lies on us. IT DOES NOT

@pixelburp i tagged you in this only because, I, as a boards user, am exercising my (sovereign ;) right to deny certain users recognition. Therefore i direct this post to you. SHOULD ANYONE wish to continue using Taiwan to WHATABOUT this thread into the gutter - they can take note of the above - there is more to say on this, but i think i have said enough.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805454#Comment_118805454

You know being a Russian you must really have the fear of God in you in how much power the CIA et al have in the world. The funny thing is Putin is NOT going to achieve his desired results (government change, puppy dictator in place, showing off the Russian power and keeping countries in their sphere of influence) and will instead have managed to do the exact opposite. He wanted to leave a legacy as the man who re-build the USSR, ensured the sphere of influence remained and showed their military power and toys to the world. Instead he's made sure all other countries in the sphere are running towards the west; his "super weapons" have been shown to be complete duds against western weapons; AND on top of all of that they are being stolen and looked at by the Western countries to see exactly what technology they use to counter it even easier in the future.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805454#Comment_118805454

Please provide evidence that Zelenskyy (note the spelling) is a CIA asset

busunderer

The topic is clearly above your pay grade if you’re struggling with my statement.

give things 30 days and let’s see where we are.

busunderer

as per my previous response I’ll check back in with you in 30 days.