Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)
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The AP have published an incredible piece of journalism - it's by the last 2 journalists left in Mariupol. They're the ones who captured the footage of the bombing of the maternity hospital. The Ukrainian army made a supreme effort to get them out of the city a few days ago because they feared the Russians capturing them and forcing them to say that everything that they had published was really a lie.
The sad thing is that now that they are gone there are no journalists left to bear witness to what comes next.
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Does Ukraine have a problem with neo-nazis in certain places and organisations?
Yes they do , but not significantly more so than many other countries in Eastern Europe, including Russia
Is the presence of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine a legitimate reason for Putins invasion?
Absolutely categorically not , it's an excuse aimed at emotionally connecting with the (perfectly reasonable) long standing hatred and disgust for Nazis among Russian people on foot of the actions of the German occupying forces during WW2.
Does the fact that people dismiss this obviously false narrative/justification being used by Putin mean that they are forgetting/excusing the existing of Nazis in Ukraine?
No , it just means that people are refusing to give air-time/credence to Putin's propaganda.
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Russia are so concerned about Neo Nazis, they are finishing off the job the Nazis started - killing concentration camp survivors with indiscriminate attacks.
If Ukraine had such a neo-nazi problem, how were jewish people living in peace... until Russia invaded in the name of "denazification"?
I say "IN the name of" because it's patently obvious it has nothing to do with why Russia has invaded and anybody bringing up this canard is really showing themselves as nothing more than a tool of Russian propaganda.
For starters:
Russian bombs hit Babyn Yar, a memorial on the site of one of the Holocaust’s single largest massacres.
Ukrainian Holocaust survivor killed by Russian shelling
Several grassroots groups and volunteers as far away as Los Angeles are working to extricate elderly Holocaust survivors from Ukraine
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/grassroots-groups-rescue-holocaust-survivors-ukraine-83547200
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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It can also be factually stated that there are Neo-Nazis fighting FOR RUSSIA in the Donbas
The above is a Far Right Russian Fascist terrorist group, currently fighting with the Russians during this war. This is one group that has been actively supported by Russia. In fact Vladimir Zhoga, above was awarded 'Hero of the Russian Federation' - by Executive Order of the Kremlin
Just in case anyone is glossing over this - please read: A Neo NAZI far right warlord, who died in the Ukraine - was awarded 'Hero of the Russian Federation' - By Vladimir Putin - fact
So -
- Are there NAZIS involved in the conflict - Yes
- Which side are they fighting for - BOTH SIDES
- Does any of this justify Russian actions - NO
- When did these Neo Nazi Battalions start popping up in the Ukraine? in 2014 when Russia Annexed the Crimea, and armed the above group (among others) - in a blatant attempt to destabilize the Ukraine
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Interesting to hear more about the Belarussian sabotage attacks against the Russian forces. I guess people feel much freer to oppose the war there and are less afraid of the security services and reprisals.
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Reparations kick in. maybe a bit like Germany after the end of WW1.? Fantasy land? Maybe. What ever happens, the world as we knew it has gone...."
I was being sarcastic in relation to your comment above and possibility of Putin being deposed etc. Referencing Prince Andrew and Epstein saga and the perverted and unethical tendencies of many in our ruling classes
If regime change in Russia was Nato/US policy all along, drawing Putin into Ukraine on purpose to achieve that goal, then there must be shared responsibility for all the civilian casualties.
Many commentators are pointing out that Russia have shown little or no regard for civilians in previous campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria. Therefore, US/NATO were well aware of the potential for serious civilian casualties when setting their trap for Putin.
In my opinion, Ukraine and Ukrainians are being sacrificed to achieve US/NATO goals.
If it works, hell, maybe you and others of your ilk will think its worth it!?
Personally, I do not. That's all.
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I think the prolonged mass street protests all over Belarus in 2020 showed that there's not much love for Lukashenko and even less for Putin. The people of Belarus would see themselves more in line with Ukrainians than they would with Russians at this stage. Whenever you see protests for Ukraine in third countries you will always see the old red & white Belarussian flag amongst the sea of Ukrainian flags.
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100%
If Belarus does involve itself (directly/militarily) in this war - I will certainly keep a close eye on information coming out of Minsk - especially RE opposition Belorussian sources -
Im sadly beginning to accept that there is insufficient Anti Putin opposition in Russia to effect real change. But IMHO that is NOT the case RE Belarus. It may sound like wishful thinking - But i will stick with it. And visualize Lukashenko 'kicking down Ukraine's door; only to find his own house has collapsed, and as a result he is now homeless' (hopes like this keep me going)
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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I read something last week where the person basically said that "Nazism" in the modern Russian context is simply a catch-all for anyone who is opposed to Putin:
- Foreign leaders who don't know their place? Nazis
- Protesters? Nazis
- Pesky independent media? Nazis
- Muslim separatists? Nazis
Putinism venerates the WW2 generation above all else and since their opponents were the original Nazis now any opposition to the state is also a Nazi.
When Putin refers to the Ukrainians as Nazis he's not saying that the Azov Battalion represents the entire country, no. What he's really saying is that Zelensky won't toe the line and subscribe to his worldview (like Lukashenko) and therefore he and his government must be......Nazis.
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Quote " I was being sarcastic in relation to your comment above and possibility of Putin being deposed etc. Referencing Prince Andrew and Epstein saga and the perverted and unethical tendencies of many in our ruling classes.
Is this what you are referring to when you mention "My Ilk"???
If regime change in Russia was Nato/US policy all along, drawing Putin into Ukraine on purpose to achieve that goal, then there must be shared responsibility for all the civilian casualties.
Bullsh^t...each and every casualty and death belongs on putins head, and none other. Anyone who thinks different, needs their own heads examined.
Many commentators are pointing out that Russia have shown little or no regard for civilians in previous campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria. Therefore, US/NATO were well aware of the potential for serious civilian casualties when setting their trap for Putin.
Trap for Putin, set by US/ NATO....Really? Is this something that you are repeating what you have heard from some one else, or have you figured this out for yourself? Have you actually been in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria, and witnessed what was happening there?
In my opinion, Ukraine and Ukrainians are being sacrificed to achieve US/NATO goals.
Really??? Ukrainians and Ukraine are being sacrificed on the altar of one Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, and no one else.
If it works, hell, maybe you and others of your ilk will think its worth it!?
Here you are again with "your ilk",,,,,are you insinuating that "My Ilk" is Quote" Prince Andrew and Epstein saga and the perverted and unethical tendencies of many in our ruling classes. " Unquote.??? Prince Andrew et al. may be your ruling classes, but like hell, they are not mine. And never have been either. Opposite ends of the spectrum as a matter of fact..
Personally, I do not. That's all. Unquote
For some one who claims to be concerned about the "Collateral damage, deaths and injuries", just what have you ever done to help the "collaterally damaged"? Have you ever even been in any of the Countrys you have mentioned, ?
As conspiratory theorists go, you sure are out of sight!!! Just another anti-US / NATO artist...deflecting blame for all the atrocities carried out by putin.....Yeah, that's your measure all right!!
- To Mods, Apologies in advance for heavy script, was done to clearly explain my answers to Nordner's post*
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THIS ^ 100%
What drives me nuts about conspiracy theorists in general, are the multiple double standards on display - generally it is always the way
- Dismiss official verified news reports from reputable sources YET - highlight some theories by bloggers, or worse, actual disinformation peddlers like RT et al
- Refusal to acknowledge actual facts on the ground, while clinging to strange and strained theories which are beyond ludicrous - (if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and quacks like a duck - its clearly a Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II disguised as a duck. Flown from a NATO Allied airfield, spreading Nato Imperialist lies, by way of a 30mm Rotary cannon, disguised as a beak)
- Dismissal of evidence suggesting one side is lying through its teeth, while simultaneously, attempting to find some way of 'both-sides-ing' an obviously black and white situation
- Refer to anyone who questions the above behavior - as Naive.
Its ludicrous - Great post @jmreire - needed to be stated clearly
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Yourself and Liamtech are quite the pair.
Hope you are enjoying your shared echo chamber together.
Seems like you are getting a tad irate there though. Possibly you are finding it hard to cope with the levels of cognitive dissonance going on in your brain?
Like the folks on here having a laugh at what a shambles the whole Russian invasion has been from the outset and delighting in Russian casualties. Sneering at their ineptitude and how it shows the world they are no longer a Superpower etc....then, in the next bresth, jumping up and down ranting and raving about how Putin is the new Hitler and how he won't stop with Ukraine...it will be the Baltic states and Poland next by God!!!
Reminds me of those actual conspiracy theorists who simultaneously blame China for Covid while being convinced the whole think is a hoax and that the virus is not real...
Or the 'Pro-lifers' who want to save every half-baked foetus going but are in favour of the death penalty, against social welfare and support military intervention in countries they cannot even find on a **** map!
The Lord help us...
I was not equating you with Epstein, Andrew and co btw. I was just questioning the morals and ethics of these lads and their mates, Clinton, Trump, Dershowitz etc, who all, I am sure, are 'Standing with Ukraine'...
More like Ukraine is on fire and the likes of these **** are throwing petrol and fireworks on the flames.
Here is a piece by Chris Hedges that might be of interest:
https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-ukraine-and-how-we-got-here-chronicle-of-a-foretold/
Although, you probably think he is a Putin apologist also and that his principled and vocal opposition to the Iraq War was misguided and unpatriotic and his subsequent banishment from mainstream media and loss of his position at The New York Times was completely deserved.
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Maybe you should start a thread called "Nordner", and rant away to your hearts content, instead of latching onto other's posts to spew your derogatory bile.
Do Svidaniya.
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@Nordner i really dont know how to respond to you. I find the ironic nature of your posts, almost cutting. I would laugh (i have laughed) at the things you accuse others, including me, of perpetrating.
- Living in an Echo Chamber
- Cognitive Dissonance
Have you any idea of what you (of all posters), have accused us of? This from a poster that thinks NATO is involved in a plot to 'lure' Russia into the Ukraine? Like in all sincerity does the word 'irony' actually have some meaning to you at all?
However, i'm going to actually reach out to you in a way. Some of what you stated gives me cause for hope
- Correctly attacking Covid Conspiracies, Bravo
- Correctly (imho) attacking the paradoxical nature of Pro Life Pro Death Penalty American Conservatives - bravo
- I suspect given what you have said, you are probably on 'My Team' (politically i mean - i suspect our values may also be similar but thats a more complicated issue so - il leave it for now)
The above tells me that you are intelligent enough to spot the forest from the Trees.
Unfortunately, on this occasion, for reasons unknown, you have not done so. Your statements signify a deep animosity toward
- NATO,
- USFP (US Foreign Policy -assuming, you havent stated it but the general trend is there)
- Shall we say 'the west' in general
IS IT POSSIBLE: That this animosity may be 'contaminating' your view of this crisis.
Please consider: You have become used to attacking the above in general. It is no surprise to me. I have done so in the past. Iraq 2, Prolonging Afghanistan, the Nonsensical USFP during the Bush Years (Our side or the Terrorists etc). I get it. Believe me i do.
Is it AT ALL POSSIBLE, that given the above, you have leaped into bed with the idea that; If the US Tells you one 'thing', and Russia tells you the other - You automatically assume that the US is lying?
The point i'm trying to make is this. America, may not be perfect, and has waged war in many different places. However none of their conflicts since the ending of the Cold War, are remotely comparable - to this.
This conflict between Russia and the Ukraine is entirely different. Please do consider that your viewpoint is at odds with the reality of this situation. Russia has
- Undermined Ukraine for the past 9 odd years
- Annexed a part of it in 2014
- Armed separatists in the East, encouraging them to start a proxy war
- Recognized the Separatists Illegally
- Invaded a democracy
- Is killing civilians with impunity
- has censored its domestic media to make out that we, in the west, are supporting NAZIS in Kyiv
Now what ever far flung connections you want to make between these points, and previous USFP failings - You are wrong to do so
- Nothing is comparable - at all - happy to debate that - its VITAL
- Even if it were comparable to Previous Misadventures - You would have sided against said misadventures without a second thought - surely?
- Why then are you equivocating on this war??? Surely if (as you will claim) the US was 'just as bad' when <insert equivalency of your choice> - Does that not make Russia EVEN WORSE, considering they are actively lying, and denying that anything AT ALL is taking place??
The above is actually an olive branch (Im hoping you will see that?) - the goal for me is not to 'get ye' - Its to actually try and pull you over to the morally correct position on this situation. As opposed to leaving you in what i can only describe as 'Moral Confusion' - I know you think the war is wrong - and i know you feel a burning 'Hypocrisy' around the whole thing RE the west. I get it - try and realize that this is misplaced
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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A good site in general that a former U.S. army ranger on our American team told me about last year.
Their articles on the Ukraine are quite interesting, along with other countries and situations, but you have to be a member to view some of them.
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Hard to understand your points here, are you claiming this was a "trap" set for Putin?
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Anyone claiming Putin was lured into Ukraine as some kind of master plan has been drinking the milk from the rusty bucket.
"I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".
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Rusty Buckets all round....are you seriously trying to say that none of this was planned? Same way Iraq/Syria etc wasn't planned? We just find ourselves in this situation via a series of random circumstances....It's like the Bart Simpson excuse....'It was like that when I got here'.
General Wesley Clark "Seven Countries in Five Years" [2007] - YouTube
Next you'll be telling me there is no oil, gas or rare earth metals in Ukraine.....Western interests merely lie in spreading 'freedom' and 'democracy'.
Nobody is denying Putin is a **** btw. But our crowd are **** as well, they are just better at the window-dressing.
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Hey Liamtech, I really appreciate you're trying to engage with me on this. Perhaps I do come across a little psycho by times, but I've got a dark sense of humour. My comedy heroes are George Carlin and Bill Hicks. I would love it if they were around right now to give us their take on what's gone on this past 2 years.
I am most definitely a leftie, however, I'm more 'dirtbag' left than most. In the Angela Nagle/Johnathan Pie/Russel Brand camp.
You said:
The point i'm trying to make is this. America, may not be perfect, and has waged war in many different places. However none of their conflicts since the ending of the Cold War, are remotely comparable - to this.
Sanctions against Iraq after the first Gulf War and leading up to the 2nd Iraq War killed hundreds of thousands of civilians including many, many innocent women and children. Currently people are starving to death in Afghanistan following the disastrous 20 year US occupation and more Sanctions. Venezuela was almost destroyed by US sanctions over the last few years while they tried to install a puppet regime. Millions were displaced and thousands died due to lack of access to everyday medicines.
All that misery, suffering and death was inflicted on sovereign countries without dropping a single bomb! Such is the power of America.
You should consider reading Robert Fisk's book The Great War for Civilization which covers most of the Middle-Eastern element of what I've outlined above.
I won't even bother going into any detail as regards the shooting wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya or US support for Saudis in Yemen or the racist and apartheid regime in Israel as you are well versed on all that already.
General Wesley Clark "Seven Countries in Five Years" [2007] - YouTube
Sure, we will have to agree to disagree, but, if last 20 odd years have taught me anything, it is that we, as citizens, should question everything we are told by our leaders. Especially when debate gets shut down and anything that runs contrary to the approved narrative is branded as 'conspiracy theories'.
Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful to live under the Western sphere of influence as opposed to China, Russia or The Middle East etc...at least we have some freedom of expression and a chance, however slim, to change things via a democratic process without resorting to violence.
I'm not trying to 'gotcha' anyone either, I just wish people would wake up to where we are headed because it isn't looking very pretty......
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Thanks for that jmreire, how very mature of you. At least Liamtech tried to engage.
Maybe I should head off and visit all those countries mentioned in previous posts as it seems to be a pre-requisite with you that one should have to go visit every country one ever wants to discuss...ever....
I'm assuming you have been to all the aforementioned countries yourself? :) If so, have you considered the impact of your carbon footprint? Good God, you are probably single-handedly responsible for all the storms we've been experiencing so far this year!
Alright, alright, sorry, no, I'll stop annoying you now jmreire as you obviously aren't able to debate me on any of the issues raised and you are so convinced of your own position as to render further discussion pointless.
I'll leave it at that.
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Jesus christ, gone full Alex Jones in here
Back to reality, it looks like shortages are having an impact
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That makes sense , for obvious reasons "Nazi" is hugely emotive for Russians , particularly older ones so lumping any and all opponents under that banner is a simple rallying cry for Putin et al. to leverage.
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At least it wasn't Sean Quinn's old place....still a chance IBRC can make a few bob out of the sale of his former properties in Kiev so long as the Russians don't destroy them first!
Sale of former Quinn family assets in Russia and Ukraine faces delay (irishtimes.com)
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The Russian regime is planning to stoop to a new low in barbarity and savagery it seems:
What should the response be by rest of the civilised world, when, if intelligence reports suggest, the Russian military employ chemical weapons against the Ukrainian population? Should it be an absolute red line? How do civilised people counter this vile savagery? I despair when considering this because it seems there is nothing that can be done. Sanctions are not enough to stop the war, yet the alternative is too horrible to contemplate - Western intervention in Ukraine to drive the Russians out.
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You tell us, you are the one claiming Putin was "lured" into making a decision to launch an invasion of Ukraine by other nations, that they set up a "trap"
I presume you have some compelling evidence, so who and how?
If you can't support it, then how is it any different from the usual serial "the West is behind this" foaming-at-the-mouth claims by bottom feeders like Alex Jones
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This idea that Putin's Russia is "even worse" than the Soviet Union must be challenged for the horrendous hyperbole and underplaying of what the Soviet Union was and did from Day one. It's not to say that Putin is anything but a evil btard.
Easier to argue that Putin's Russia still has to travel a very long way yet to be like the Soviet Union on a nice day.
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He could not have picked a worst comparison
1he wanted to leave the EU while Ukr wants to join it
2Nobody was treating The UK whereas TheUkr was being invaded
3 Brexit was helped over the line by a lot of misinformation eg much more money for hospitals.. While RU gave misinformation as to reasons for sending in Special Forces - I suppose that is one thing common tween both situations but Borris ‘forgot’ to mention it
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Am I seriously trying to say this wasn't planned? Of course it was planned, for a long time and very meticulously. By Putin. I don't accept any pretext of "but there's Nazis!", "They want to join NATO!", "How dare they not install a Russian puppet regime!". I'm not even debating on that one. Ukraine is a sovereign country and Russia has one single thing it must do and that is to get the fcuk out of there ASAP. Other than that they may use the same diplomatic channels as everyone else if they want something. And they shouldn't get butthurt if they are being nicely told to get fcuked.
And I also don't accept any "both sides" arguments. We don't arrest dissidents, shoot them on the streets, murder them abroad or muzzle the press. And that is on a good day.
Our crowd isn't perfect but to assert that we are as bad as Russia is not even fanciful, it's just full of it.
"I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".
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Ok - Thanks for responding - Well here goes
Oddly - Il start by answering my own question from the preceding post:
Is it Possible that this animosity (toward NATO and USFP) may be 'contaminating' your view of this crisis. Yes - Yes it is @Nordner , and i genuinely and sincerely sympathize with your views. I am having chats with several mates who are similarly confused on these issues. Its a kin to arguments i sometimes have with 'Theists'. Not wishing to further complicate things but let me just state. I am an Atheist, bordering on Antitheist. And i invariably get dragged into conversations RE faith, god, heaven, and religion. And despite the obviousness of these discussions (to me at least), these chats usually end with 'agreeing to disagree' - I put this down to indoctrination, and a very real cognitive dissonance.
What gives me 'faith' in this chat, is that no indoctrination has taken place. You have observed (with disdain) the actions of the US, since the end of the Cold War. You distrust it, you are intelligent enough to levy many accusations at it. All of these accusations, i would imagine, are valid. Your instinct is to distrust the US, as being Selfish, self centered, and dishonest. They have an agenda. All of this is true and valid.
And irrelevant...
IRAQ - You correctly highlight the nature of sanctions on Iraq in the Pre-9/11 world. I cannot disagree with this assessment. All i can say to you is that, the alternative, was regime change during Gulf War 1. Regardless of how you feel about the Iraqi people, or Iraq as a state. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant. He ran a police state. He gassed the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs. His state was the poster boy of middle-eastern Islamo-Fascistism. The purpose of the sanctions was to destabilize his country, and hopefully effect change - or at least - contain him. And the consequences for the Iraqi people were disastrous. No question.
What happened in the end - GW Bush, 9/11, WMD's, 'fight the terrorists over there, so as to avoid fighting them over here' - etc. We can acknowledge it as all being nonsense. And yes, it destabilized the region. But to be clear, the region was unstable to begin with. Husseins police state, was holding both innocent civilians, AND MUSLIM BROTHER HOOD ('Proto Isis' like figures), as effective hostages. With Saddam Hussein as the warden. The US killed the warden, and all hell broke loose. An interesting debate can be had as to whether leaving Hussein in place was preferable or not? But that was the situation.
None of the above is AT ALL COMPARABLE to Ukraine. I wont repeat the facts re Russia/Ukraine, they have been laid out a number of times by many posters - All i ask is that you compare the two situations. The above, is rough, and leaves out a lot. But the meat and bones are there - You need to acknowledge that the starting positions are entirely different. You need to realize that the conditions within the respective players, are entirely different.
- US (Democracy, politically turbulent, hawkish) invades Iraq (Islamo-fascistic 'prison state')
- Russia (Despotic Tyrannical Dictatorship, with few (if any) mediums for opposition discourse) invades Ukraine (Burgeoning Democracy with ambitions to modernize, liberalize, and ensure prosperity for itself and its population)
Intentions
Il ask you to play a game with me. A hypothetical experiment. I cannot take credit for this experiment, its an argument put forth by Sam Harris. In many of your posts you have listed numbers of 'western Leaders' and policy makers, who you clearly view with antipathy. Its clear you view these people, as being 'just as bad' as some of the dictators they sought to destroy. Lets just use the example of George W Bush, and keep it simple.
What was the intention of Bush invading Iraq?
- Occupy Iraq?
- convert it into a US Satellite?
- Steal all the oil?
- incorporate it into the US as a 'state' or 'unincorporated US territory'?
Now you could argue that Oil had some baring on the post 9/11 Iraq war - and possibly have some merit. But as to the other reasons? No. I dont think you can argue any of them. I will further ask you - do you honestly believe Bushes intention was
- to kill Iraqi Civilians wholesale?
- to utterly destroy Iraqi infrastructure (before you answer YES to this - understand that bombing Iraqi infrastructure, only to then begin rebuilding it when the dust settles - makes absolutely no sense - you cannot assign a profit motive to this - before you try, please, keep reading?)
No. The above occurred by way of collateral damage. Now if you want to argue 'but liam, whats the difference, the dead remain dead' - let me point out that 'intention' is king here. The US used precision weapons in Iraq. And civilians died. The goal, was NOT to ACTIVELY KILL CIVILIANS.
Imagine a hypothetical 'Perfect weapon' - for the purposes of this - lets say it is a bullet that can track, and kill, only those one wishes to. This 'smart bullet' can be fired from anywhere in the world, and it will bypass 'non targets', and only hit those it is programmed to. Zero possibility of collateral damage.
How would George Bush have used such a weapon? If you believe the death toll in Iraq would have been anything close to what it invariably was - then you are totally mistaken. (please pause and really imagine this - please)
Now hand this weapon to Putin, Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein, (Hitler, if you want). How would such dictators have used these weapons? Would they have gone out of their way to avoid civilian deaths? Would they have refrained from hitting political opponents, the press, dissidents, protesters, 'enemies of their respective regimes'?... the word NO, should now be appearing in your mind - in bold.
If you follow this logic, you should see a 'moral gap' opening between the two sets of people. You dont need to become a 'Bush Cheerleader', or a 'NeoCon Hawk' due to this gap. But it does require you to re-evaluate your generalized 'Moral Confusion' on this topic. We have seen clearly in the last few weeks that Iraq and Ukraine are chalk and cheese.
Im happy to continue this discussion. As i doubt my ability to fully articulate what i am trying to say - i genuinely suggest you read the following
Its a long article but let me highlight the sections labeled
- Leftist Unreason and the Strange Case of Noam Chomsky
- Perfect Weapons and the Ethics of “Collateral Damage”
It will provide a more in dept analysis of the argument i am trying to make here. The article itself is actually taken from 'The end of Faith' and brought into an argument Harris has with Noam Chomsky.
As a 'fellow leftie' i would say we are similar in many ways, and i actually get where you are coming from. You are intelligent. And i am not going to ignore you @Nordner . I disagree ENTIRELY with much of your core thesis on this conflict. But unlike some, who argue in Bad Faith, i sense we could actually have a 'Good faith' debate on this. However, I re-iterate that your position is morally confused - so do please (genuinely) - read the above, and the sections highlighted - and get back to me - (in private if you like)
My goal here is not to 'Beat You' - my goal is to turn you into a true, and valued, ally - this, i would value
Sincerely
Liamo :~)
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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##Mode Note##
Multiple below standard mails removed.
Up the quality of posts please.
As a reminder - link dumps , Video/Twitter links without context or commentary are not acceptable.
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