Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439550#Comment_119439550

A shame I still see the Soviet's posts thanks to some people replying 🙂 Of course, naturally they try to whatabout on the Chechans without actually supply proof. Empty vessels.

The Chechens weren't ever heralded; they might have garnered sympathy from the typically Russian overkill response, but it quickly faded when it was realised just how vicious the Chechans themselves were. As you say yourself with those examples.

It's kinda darkly amusing how enthusiastically, how stubbornly, some have argued that the Azov batallion is some silver bullet of Ukrainian depravity or moral corruption - yet since day 1 the Russians have openly, publicly embraced a vicious set of barbaric killers as an integral part of their invasion plan. They chose these barbarians. When your soldiers are more inhumane than Nazis, you've kinda lost the moral argument.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439691#Comment_119439691

Alas, there's nothing unusual about this practise. Colonial or repressive regimes often used to employ the most brutalized,dehumanized dregs of their colonized peoples for especially dangerous tasks or for their dirtiest work; Franco used the indigenous Moroccan troops for savagery his own trops might have blanched at , the French used native Algerian troops in the Algerian war and Korean camp guards were especially feared by prisoners of the Japanese. Doubtless there are other examples.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119438405#Comment_119438405

Nothing new in that,, there are Russian authors who served as conscripts during the Chechen War who write about bodies of Chechens being placed in crucifixion poses.

nigeldaniel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439616#Comment_119439616

Worldwide, the history books will record Russia in an very dim light for generations to come. No amount of fanatics can cover up monsters no matter how hard they try.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437063#Comment_119437063

When this attack happened for reason of propaganda it was reported as occupied . What has since emerged the hospital was not occupied .

kernkraft500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439388#Comment_119439388

not really, only in countries which don't have a chance to assimilate into a democracy usually cause problems, or in Ukraine's case, as an EU country, which Russia is terrified of happening....

Russia flattened Chechnya, got rid of anyone who had a bad word against them, and installed a puppet government who rule with fear, and stay in power through greed.... any Chechens who had the chance too, got out of there in the 90's. You are left with a population who can't leave and have to fight to survive... that's where your "loyalty" comes from... trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes and say different is absolute garbage

smurfjed

Good news for a change.

ISTANBUL — A Panama-flagged ship carrying 33,000 tons of Ukrainian corn arrived on Saturday in Istanbul from the Ukrainian port of Odesa en route to Ireland.

Under the recent Turkish-brokered grain deal, Navistar has to undergo inspection at the Istanbul Joint Coordination Center (JCC) before setting sail to its destination, according to Turkiye's Anadolu Agency (AA).

Two more ships carrying grain and foodstuffs set out from the Ukrainian ports, AA reported, citing a statement from the National Defense Ministry.

The second ship, Malta-flagged Rojen, left the port of Chornomorsk with 13,000 tons of grain for the UK, the ministry said.

The third ship, Turkiye-flagged ship Polarnet, which was waiting at the port of Chornomorsk, sailed to the Karasu port in northwestern Turkiye. The ship, which is carrying 12,000 tons of grain, reaches Karasu.

Both ships will also be inspected by a joint team in Istanbul, it added. — Agencies

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440599#Comment_119440599

This is pretty much what the dictatorship is doing in southern Ukraine. The Mail had a report from inside Kherson yesterday and there is nothing remotely normal about life in the city. More like something out of a dystopian novel, with the Russians ruling by brute force and soldiers everywhere.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439671#Comment_119439671

I don't think Russia despises our way of life. It's probably more complicated than that. I don't think they despise our culture.

nigeldaniel

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/02/a-crisis-within-a-crisis-how-war-is-hitting-the-disabled-in-ukraine

Keep in mind those whom maybe out of mind, stuck in the Ukraine and at the mercy of the Russian invaders who don't seem to be too kind to anyone.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439615#Comment_119439615

What loaded? It's a fact.

The whole EU has been at war with Russia since 2012. Hybrid war, a disinformation war (a very soft term). Which continues in much higher intensity since March 2022. Since then we're technically further than the hybrid war. It's worse than the Cold War, from Kremlin side is definitely a war, it might not be an open war from the EU for strategic reasons but it's a war indeed...

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440674#Comment_119440674

Your right Vladimir Putin and his cabal despise our way of life. Not Russians in general.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442257#Comment_119442257

I think Putin and his cabal appreciate our way of life - for themselves.

They realise that the only way they can fund their billionaire way of life is to impoverish the population from which they steal to fund their massive wealth, and keep them under the heel of the jackboot to suppress any dissent.

20silkcut

True they are horrified at the prospect of having to share wealth and power with other Russians and the general Russian population. It is the main driver of all this madness. I am absolutely dumbfounded by western apologists who cannot see this or refuse to see this.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444033#Comment_119444033

I'm not sure what sources you use to arrive at such an opinion. The uncomfortable truth is that Putin and his government are widely supported in Russia even after 6 months of war. Inflation is stable, Food is on the shelves, Energy costs are obviously not an issue and the sanctions have had little to no effect on the average Russian.

In fact there is a general opinion that Putin is a bit too moderate and is more pro Europe than he should be. Even Medvedev is more hawkish than Putin these days.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444232#Comment_119444232

What you say is evidence of how successful Putin has been in brainwashing so much of the Russian population.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444269#Comment_119444269

That's a hell of a lot of quite well educated people to brainwash. 140 Million in fact. Not sure they would agree with your sweeping generalisation of their gullability.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444232#Comment_119444232

To the average Russian Putin is arguably the best Russian/soviet leader of the last 100 years. Best of a bad lot. Lenin/Stalin/kruschev/Brezhnev were wedded to an insanely stupid ideology. Gorbachev oversaw the uncontrolled collapse of all that and Yeltsin was fond of the vodka. In comparison to the western world Russia is well behind where they should be. That is the measure. Whether Russians see it or not is irrelevant but western sympathisers to Putin have no excuse.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444332#Comment_119444332

You don't have to brainwash them all, and I never said that. Get 60% or so on your side, plus draconian laws (15 years for referring to "the war") and you have it game, set and match, at least for the moment.

The thing with autocracy as well though, like, is that Putin and Xi seem way more competent as leaders in comparison to what democracy comes up with in the West..

pixelburp

Haha, Jesus. Anyone seems competent when you suppress, jail or kill the opposition or dissenting voices.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444232#Comment_119444232

The context of the post you are replying to is that we shouldnt blame the Russian people because they are being led by a dictator who brainwashes them. Do you disagree?

If so, do you think all Russians, or at least the majority of them who support Putin and the war, are morally responsible for it? In particular, for the pillaging, mistreatment of prisoners and the careless and indiscriminate bombing of civilians?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444532#Comment_119444532

Usually around 35% is enough to take over and destroy democracy. Intimidate the remaining 65%. Hitler won the 1933 election with 33% and that was sufficient to grab the power.

Similarly, the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia won 36% in a democratic free election in 1946 (actually the only country where the Communists got into the power by democratic means) and that was sufficient to get a complete control by February 1948 by infiltrating all state apparatus with Bolsheviks and KGB agents.

United Russia party first election win was just 38%. Which allowed them to consolidate power by various means etc.

Democracy is really fragile to populist extremist movements and this is extremely important to remember with regards to Russian troll meddling and information war where the Russian propaganda machine supports exact these destructive parties and trends in the EU and elsewhere (Brexit, Trump etc). We see it unravelling even in this thread. We are at war indeed.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444332#Comment_119444332

70% of the Russian population have never set foot outside Russia. They wouldn't need to gaslight 'all' the population, just a considerable amount. Keep telling them that they live in the greatest country on earth and shut down any voices who claim otherwise.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444663#Comment_119444663

I do disagree. I think the vast majority are not brainwashed at all. I think we in the west view the Russian and Chinese populations as ignorant, subservient prisoners of totalitarian governments who if given the choice would overthrow their governments instantly. We ignore the fact that culturally and politically they think very differently to us. Anecdotally when I lived with Chinese people in London I was taken aback myself at how proud they were of their communist government and its capitalist economy. These were young, highly educated and intelligent people with good jobs in the city of London whom I would have expected to hate their authoritarian leaders.

Individualism and liberal ideals are just not as important to Russian & Chinese cultures as they are to us in the west in my opinion. They care more about stability and economic security than having a choice between two parties who pretend to be different than each other but are pretty much the same. Like FF/FG, Democrats/Republicans, Tories/Labour etc. And as CDQ said earlier this allows their leaders to be more confident so that they can make decisions that aren't based on looking good for the elective beauty contest that comes up every couple years. I wouldn't like that way of being ruled but I'm not from there. But if I was to bet my house on a game of chess between Xi/Putin and Stuttering Biden/Bumbling Boris I know who I'd put my money on to win. And If your honest you would do the same. Democracy seems to be in a dismal state these days if Biden and Johnson are the best that the free world can come up with.

In answer to your second question I think the Russians understand why the war is happening. They and their government had been warning the west since 2008 that Ukraine should always remain neutral and any attempt to subsume such a unique country into NATO would lead to catastrophic consequences. Just as the Americans would understand why it would be happening if the Chinese were building military bases on the border of Mexico and treating ethnic americans in that area as second class citizens and bombing them for 8 years. The US has the Monroe Doctrine which basically says that no large foreign nuclear power can have a military base in the entire western hemisphere as that is America's hemisphere and they reserve the right to go to war with anyone who tries. How is that fair?

Apart from the Chechen soldier who should be locked up forever for his treatment of the POW I really don't agree that they are indiscriminantly bombing civilians either. And nether does Amnesty it seems.

rgossip30

A number of articles that question the aid and where it is going knowing that Ukraine is a corrupt country .

The reason unlike other East European countries why it was not allowed to join the EU .

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/19/politics/us-weapons-ukraine-intelligence/index.html

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/09/us-aid-ukraine-corruption/

rgossip30

..

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445481#Comment_119445481

human beings can’t be trusted to have such untrammelled power. History has many examples of why it’s a bad idea with body counts in the 100s of millions and the most heinous acts imaginable. Maybe you should go and live under your chess masters Putin/Xi. You say look at what democracy has produced in the form of Biden / Johnson. I say look at what democracy is preventing from happening and who it is preventing from having this unhindered power. That’s a far better outcome.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444556#Comment_119444556

What exactly is it about the last 6 months that makes you think Russia is a competently run country?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445481#Comment_119445481

And nether does Amnesty it seems.

Amnesty absolutely does think the Russians are indiscriminately bombing civilians. They mention it many times.

They also think that at times Ukrainian forces are putting civilians at risk from setting up in civilian areas - my read and that of many others is that this is a pretty poor understanding of what the actual "rules" of war are. However, even within the report, and in public statements since, they clear that Russia continues to commit many war crimes with indiscriminate bombing.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445490#Comment_119445490

Those articles are from april and june respectively, so a bit out of date

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-military-aid-weapons-front-lines/

Much outrage over this when it was initially published, due to claims from NGOs that 30-40% of aid actually gets to where its supposed to inside Ukraine.

Theyve since updated with:

...

But he says the situation has significantly improved since then and a much larger quantity now gets where it's supposed to go.

The government of Ukraine notes that U.S. defense attaché Brigadier General Garrick M. Harmon arrived in Kyiv in August 2022 for arms control and monitoring. CBS News has reached out to Harmon for an interview.

The worst case scenario is if Ukraine do lose this war, the amount of weapons having been funneled into the country will cause instability all over Eastern Europe:

"That's one of the reasons we have to win the war," said Ohman. "If we lose the war, if we have this kind of gray zone, semi-failed state scenario or something like that. If you do this — you funnel lots of lethal resources into a place and you lose — then you will have to face the consequences."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445963#Comment_119445963

Well, in the last six months it's went from a gas station with nukes, or whatever that quote was, to a superpower again?.. Has it not?..It's brought Europe to it's knees, by not doing anything really..using Europe's own power (to moralise, posture, and sanction..) against itself..It has the best performing currency in the world..It has no debt..The most advanced weapons in the world..

I know you're probably still viewing it from a propaganda drenched, western centric perspective, but the world is changing..

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446012#Comment_119446012

Since when does Russia have the most advanced weapons in the world?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446040#Comment_119446040

It has hypersonic missiles..

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445490#Comment_119445490

I saw one observer comment that some people are pushing this line because military aid is getting through to where it is needed and they are secretly raging (i.e. they don't particularly like Ukraine or Zelensky and are closet Putin fans).

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446012#Comment_119446012

The value of Russia's currency is irrelevent. The reason why it is high is nobody else wants it and Russians can't spend it on imports.

A military superpower would have defeated the Ukranian military, captured Kyiv, Odessa, and any other city or port they wanted to capture. They would have complete and uncontested air and naval superiority and every Ukranian anti aircraft and ship platform would have been blitzed in the first phase of the war so that attack aircraft could range at will.

They wouldn't be stuck in south eastern Ukraine advancing at WW1 pace.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446012#Comment_119446012

A superpower 🤣

It had nukes before and has them now, but it otherwise has shown itself to be a rather pathetic military power. But rather more relevantly it is clear that Putin and his inner circle had no idea just how miserably pathetic his armed forces were because generally speaking kleptocracies are a terrible way to run a functioning country. The rouble is artificially strong, but it doesn't matter because oil is denominated in dollars and Russia can't import anything. A stronger rouble literally means they get less value for their oil.

But sure, at this rate they will conquer the entire Donbas sometime around mid 2024. Probably using T34 tanks by that stage. How impressive.

Also Europe is not "on its knees". This winter will be awful, but once they come out the other side Russia will have even less influence and control and will never be able to get it back.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446141#Comment_119446141

Ah, we'll see what happens..but likewise, Europe will have no influence in the east..it will be competing economically with competitors who have half the energy costs..And like, it's not going to go back to how it was..

Russia doesn't need to import much, and what it does it has India, China, the Middle Eastern countries, and Africa..

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446166#Comment_119446166

Russia relies overwhelmingly on technological support from "Western" countries for their more complicated oil drilling, their aviation industry and many other sectors. It doesn't need to import oil, but they can't even make fries in their fake McDonalds.

Europe has never had influence in Russia. Something ultimately Merkel probably should have realised earlier. If you mean "the east" to include China et al, then very little is going to change there because of this. There is a reason China is trying to stay out of the conflict as much as possible. Perhaps some countries will rethink the practicality of outsourcing so much manufacturing to China.

nigeldaniel

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0808/1314486-ukraine-russia/

makes very good sense. Hopefully, this can be arranged.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446193#Comment_119446193

Many tech SMEs across Europe and the US stopped offshoring to China in the mid-2010s, then started reshoring since.

Recently Covid, fret snarls (like that container ship in Suez) and lastly fuel loading on fret slapped a supersized turbo on it.

China isn’t going to stop being the World’s manufacturer for a while yet, and recent export figures since Q1 2019 show that well enough…but a non-trivial volume of business people have relearned that ancient 80/20 rule and its equal relevance to the supply side, and methinks Xi and his clique knows it.

Stewball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446236#Comment_119446236

Why do the ukrainians keep shelling the plant?

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445481#Comment_119445481

So, just to be clear, you consider that most Russian people believe that if a neighbouring country does not do what the Russian government tells that other country to do, Russia has the right to invade? This logically means that, other than the suggestion that this is a valid view for them to take, the Russian people can be held responsible for this war?

bobowen

This is the fundamental difference I have with most people on here. You all want to take February 24th as Day Zero when the current invasion happened.

I have said the same thing over and over again. Russia created, owned, governed and subsequently gave away the country known as modern Ukraine. Its only stipulation for this huge geopolitical gesture was that due to its unique history and ethnic diversity it must remain a neutral state and not join ANY military bloc ( including a Russian military Bloc). It is in the nations founding document that can be found on the Ukraine Government website where it states the following:

"The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles: to accept, to produce and to purchase no nuclear weapons."

http://static.rada.gov.ua/site/postanova_eng/Declaration_of_State_Sovereignty_of_Ukraine_rev1.htm#:~:text=The%20Ukrainian%20SSR%20solemnly%20declares,to%20purchase%20no%20nuclear%20weapons.

Ever since 2008 the US has been getting involved in its politics and economy in order to poke the bear. Russia spent 14 years saying they would not tolerate Ukraine joining a military bloc as it would threaten Russia's security. When diplomacy failed the Russians acted. I think the US wouldn't have waited 14 years to act in a similar situation.

So no I don't think Russians can be held responsible for a war that was forced on them by NATO and US interference.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450167#Comment_119450167

Similarly you can say Russia has been medalling in Ukraine politics for the last 20 years including backing pro krelim parties and individuals, murdering rival politicians and non kremlin friendly business people

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450167#Comment_119450167

This is the same propaganda you posted earlier in the thread which was thoroughly discredited and debunked.

The USSR constitution allowed Ukraine to leave freely.

Whatever nonsense a Ukranian puppet state government had to declare is therefore irrelevent - and entirely superseded by...

Ukraine as a sovereign country signed an international treaty with Russia, the Budapest agreement. Nowhere does it mention the SSD. Nowhere does it mention neutrality. It agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in return for Russia acceptance of its territory and sovereignty.

This is what liar in chief Lavrov said about Budapest.

Lavrov was asked how, given Russia’s violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and its failure to observe international agreements, Russia’s neighbors should feel secure. He responded: “If you’re referring to the Budapest Memorandum, we have not violated it. It contains only one obligation—i.e., not to use nuclear weapons against Ukraine. No one has made any threats to use nuclear weapons against Ukraine.”

This is proven to be a pack of lies here:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2016/01/28/mr-lavrov-russia-and-the-budapest-memorandum/

And before you add in any more deflections and smokescreens, this is where you were checkmated last time:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293475/#Comment_119293475

Podge_irl

Ukraine hasn't joined any military bloc

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450738#Comment_119450738

Russia started all the shenanigans with violating Budapest when Ukraine started signing agreements with the EU.

Since then they've been spinning every lie under the sun, including blatant lies about the contents of Budapest, to try to justify keeping Ukraine in its orbit as a vassal state like Belarus.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450819#Comment_119450819

Oh I completely agree.

But even the false premise argument doesn't really work because Ukraine wasn't in NATO and was not close to joining it. For all the talk of "what if Russia/China put a base in Mexico", none of this actually happened.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450831#Comment_119450831

Totally.

And it was Russia's violations of Budapest that pushed Ukraine closer to joining NATO. And as we have seen, this latest illegal act of aggression has pushed Sweden and Finland into joining NATO. Because Russia has demonstrated unequivocally for all the world to see it will not respect international law or international agreements and can only be stopped or deterred by overwhelming military force.