Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

odyssey06

Ukraine claims responsibility for attack on airbase deep in occupied Crimea

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/08/09/world/ukraine-russia-news-war?smid=url-share#ukraine-claims-a-rare-attack-in-crimea

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukraine-claims-responsibility-for-massive-blasts-at-russian-base-in-crimea-despite-kremlins-story

Pussyhands

https://www.rte.ie/news/ukraine/2022/0809/1314675-ukraine-russia/

Zelenskiy is a racist. This is a disgusting plea.

fly_agaric

You surprise me with such John-Lennonish views Pussy.

Zelensky has the right idea. Visas are privileges countries give out that can be revoked as they see fit IMO, not some kind of modern human right that is deserved by all. I think the Baltic states have been cracking down on the visas issued to Russians and Finland is making noises about it as well, trying to get something done at EU level (for Schengen I suppose). I mean Russia is this great Empire prospering under the guiding hand of strong leader Putin while we suffer most horribly as he cuts off the gas flows. Why would a true Russian want to visit the Weak-Woke-West anyway?

https://www.euronews.com/2022/08/09/finland-and-estonia-call-for-eu-ban-on-tourist-visas-for-russians

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450893#Comment_119450893

Are Russians a 'race' or a nationality?

I would have thought cancelling visas for Russians travelling into the EU might be a reasonable thing to do - after all, they are at war with Ukraine in an unprovoked attack on a sovereign state.

Stewball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450943#Comment_119450943

How long before that clown in Kiev is calling for the rounding up of Russians living in European countries?

At some point the EU has to say 'no' to the nonsense coming from the Ukrainians.

Sam Russell

If the Russians are waging war in Europe, the EU should take 'special military operations' against Russians in the EU, or at least those looking for visas.

I do not see any reason why visa restrictions should not be applied.

Stewball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451036#Comment_119451036

The Russians aren't waging war in Europe - the Russian government is.

Targeting average Russians only punishes innocent Russians.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451188#Comment_119451188

Ok,let us get all Russians to swear that they are against the war. Yea, I can see that working. Even the kleptocrats would be against the war if it got them access to their billions and their yachts.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450943#Comment_119450943

Well trump was called a racist for banning people from certain countries so I think it counts as racism. Whatever you call it, doesn't matter. Its an outrageous suggestion and should be called out for the disgusting act that it is.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451188#Comment_119451188

And what, "The Germans" weren't waging war, it was their government? So Germans and German society should have been left unfettered to carry on as normal even as their armies marched across Europe?

Meanwhile in the real world.

The EU is already targeting "The Russians" with sanctions.

If your country is waging an illegal war of aggression against a European country. You don't get off scot free. Unlike innocent Ukranians, they are not being bombed in their homes or executed on the side of the road. They are having visas denied. Oh the horror of it all.

Spare us the crocodile tears.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451209#Comment_119451209

Is it anywhere near as disgusting as invading a country as a land grab, raping women and kids, stealing, murdering? Or is it disgusting like a mouthful of gone off milk?

When a country is at war, it is on behalf of the people living there. They have the power to overthrow any government they disagree with. The Russian population in general appear to be sitting back doing sfa about their government.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451209#Comment_119451209

Yup, totally completely and utterly the exact same situation.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451273#Comment_119451273

It's not a competition man!

I could go straight out and punch the first person I see. Am I a scumbag then or do I get off because Russia are doing something worse?

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451287#Comment_119451287

Dodge the tough questions. The Russian government represent the people. The people are responsible. They can overthrow the government if they have a will.

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451287#Comment_119451287

As you've rightly pointed out, the Russians are doing something significantly worse. As such, a proportionate and fair response would be significantly more punitive than if a single person had punched a random other person.

before talking too much about that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this highly related issue. what did you think of the outrageous, disgusting and racist act by the Russian government where they imposed visa restrictions on innocent members of several countries? Truly barbarous, right??

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-imposes-visa-restrictions-citizens-unfriendly-countries-2022-04-04/

https://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo

Roger Waters ( Pink Floyd) fantastic interview to CNN about war on Ukraine.

purplefields

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451240#Comment_119451240

It's always the politicians that start wars.

Normal, ordinary people just want to live their lives.

There are youtube videos that show how European borders have changed over the last 1000 years, and you can see how frequently the borders change, on the whim of politicians. Even for Ireland/Uk. In another few hundred years, Ireland might again be part of the UK, or be joined with Scotland, or some other combination. It's all just so futile.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451758#Comment_119451758

You should tell that to Putin so.

All the more reason those who start wars to redraw borders and conduct them through savagery and war crimes must be opposed.

It was all so futile was it, whether Hitler conquered Europe or not?

Has it been futile that Poland, Latvia, Czech republic etc have lived in freedom for the last generation instead of being subject to Russo-Soviet oppression?

purplefields

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451779#Comment_119451779

I would tell that to all politicians - Hitler, Putin, Obama, Blair, Biden etc, etc...

The second world war did not happen in isolation. Even if it did, then yes, even Hitler winning would be ultimately futile. Why? - because there's always another war in the pipeline.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'pro-Russian propaganda cues'?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451819#Comment_119451819

Your tired "anti war" tropes at this stage serve only as pro-Russian propaganda. Because peace at this stage sees Russia in possession of Ukranian territory, rewarded for their savagery and war crimes. They must be defeated.

Putin wants to hear anti war in the west so he can continue his war. To be pro peace now one must also be pro war because a lasting peace needs Russia stopped and defeated in Ukraine.

Is life futile, because death is certain?

Anyone who think defeating Hitler was futile has no moral compass. In terms of the generations who would have had to live under Nazi tyranny you simply have no comprehension of what you are talking about. It would have meant the Holocaust expanded to multiple continent wide scale for starters. Stopping and defeating tyrants is not futile.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451209#Comment_119451209

Trump was called a racist because all the countries he banned were Muslim countries and only Muslim countries were banned.

It was clearly an act of a racist.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450167#Comment_119450167

Actually there was never any stipulation that Ukraine never join a military bloc and in fact Putin in the 2000's specifically said Ukraine was entirely free to join NATO & Russia had no objections to that (it sounds like you are suggesting that the Russians are duplicitous - is that correct?).

Furthermore, if concern for joining NATO were an actual Russian concern, then they would not have attacked in 2022: Russia's invasion of 2014 ensured that Ukraine could never join NATO given the dispute within its borders.

As regards Ukraine's undertakings, let's not forget Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in exchange for explicit assurances from Russia that it would not invade & carve up the country and Ukrainians were majority in favour of neutrality right up until the Russians reneged on their commitments, invaded their country and started murdering their population - perhaps it was a coincidence.

As regards external states getting involved in Ukrainian politics- a more important question is to what extent Russia got involved - considering that, as you say, Russia has zero regards for Ukrainian sovereignty or democracy.

As regards "poke the bear"- that silly trope racistly suggests that Russians have no agency,

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451880#Comment_119451880

He banned certain countries, he didn't ban all muslim countries....

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451188#Comment_119451188

False.

Screenshot_20220810-002417~2.png

Let's leave it there.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451948#Comment_119451948

No, but all the "banned" countries were Muslim. In any event "racism" is an inappropriate term. Muslims are not a race, so Islamophobia is more apt. And Russians are not a "race" so this whole discussion is very wide of the mark, and it's nonsense to call Zelenski a racist in this context.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446012#Comment_119446012

A superpower that can't even defeat the country ranked 22nd in military strength? Hypersonic missiles? So we keep hearing but one thing we've seen is that Russian weapons sound impressive on paper but its another thing when the rubber meets the road. Their tanks have fatal design flaws that kill the crews, their vaunted Fermata tank seems to have been built in tiny quantities and if it has performed well on the battlefield we have yet to hear about it. Their air which was expected to gain aerial superiority in hours if not days seems to be in hiding unable to deal with Ukrainian AA. Their artillery-a Russian speciality-is impressive , although mainly because of numbers but it has now met it's match with the new weapons arriving from Europe and they seem to have nothing to match the HIMARs. Their navy has not impressed, nobody expected a significant warship to be destroyed so easily by the Ukrainians and they seem to have cautiously withdrawn to a safe distance, negating their monentary superiority. They don't seem to have learnt an awful lot from Georgia and Chechyna (and they didn't seem to have learnt much from Afghanistan in those theatres). They seem to have inflexible military doctrines, relying on brute force and terror instead of finesse and their logistics seem to be a mess, which speaks to widespread corruption in their military. All in all they have shown themselves undeserving of their vaunted reputation. If it were not for their nuclear weapons I wouldn't put money on them in a one-on-one with Turkey, France, Japan or a united eastern Europe,let alone the USA or China.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451948#Comment_119451948

The poster never said that he did., basic comprehension mistake to say otherwise.

What's your opinion on Russia visa restrictions and bans to people from certain countries since April?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451948#Comment_119451948

Others have already elaborated on the subject of the ban he was able to put in place - but let's also not forget that in 2015 he DID in fact call for a complete and total blanket ban on all muslims entering the United States.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-calls-for-complete-ban-on-muslims-entering-the-us-video

Sam Russell

Comparing Trump with Putin - whether on racism or anything else - is comparing one loathsome nasty with another one.

It is simply not worth the bother.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450893#Comment_119450893

Russians aren't a ''race''. In fact, according to them, they're identical in every way to Ukrainians (and Belorussians).

josephmcfarland878

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118653067#Comment_118653067

I agree to u

paul71

Wow pussyhands repeating and falling for the Kremlin propaganda aimed at those with toddlers comprehension skills. Are we really back at the racist nazi gay jewish shite. That old trope has been rolled out and laughed at since February, and indeed long before that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452450#Comment_119452450

Some people are easily bought and sold, see it every day in work.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451839#Comment_119451839

 Because peace at this stage sees Russia in possession of Ukranian territory, rewarded for their savagery and war crimes. They must be defeated.

Do you genuinely see a path to Russia being defeated and driven back from all Ukrainian territory? What more can be given to the Ukrainians that they havent already gotten?

Keep in mind NATO can and will not intervene directly in the conflict.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454332#Comment_119454332

From all Ukrainian territory? Probably not, but something akin to Feb 24th lines is not unreasonable. Local partisan activity will only get worse and if Russian forces have been degraded to the point they can't feasibly advance they could try and consolidate to a fairly small area. Who knows, it will probably be years in the making.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454375#Comment_119454375

The most likely scenario is a near stalemate, with Ukraine making small gains near Kherson, Russia making small gains near Bakhmut. The sheer volume of artillery on both sides makes any advances incredibly difficult. HIMARS is great and all, but they would need many multiples of what they currently have to do enough counter battery work to make advances possible.

The big thing is how sustainable this is for the Ukrainian economy - they are needing 9 billion dollars a month from US and EU just to keep their economy from collapsing. The Russians likely arent doing well either, sanctions and shortages of machinery and other parts will start to bite badly, but they do not have a war on home soil or mass mobilisation of young men to fight.

Podge_irl

I don't think a stalemate without Ukraine ultimately controlling Kherson is remotely likely. The place is going to be ungovernable. A stalemate along the Dnipro in the south does seem fairly plausible though.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451935#Comment_119451935

A lot of what you stated here has no proof or is simply not true.

"in fact Putin in the 2000's specifically said Ukraine was entirely free to join NATO & Russia had no objections to that".

Would you please point me to where and when he said this because I have never heard this and can't find anything in my searches?

"Russia's invasion of 2014 ensured that Ukraine could never join NATO given the dispute within its borders"

In 2008 the US-Ukraine Charter for Strategic Partnership stated the following: "Guided by the April 3, 2008 Bucharest Summit Declaration of the NATO North Atlantic Council and the April 4, 2008 Joint Statement of the NATO-Ukraine Commission, which affirmed that Ukraine will become a member of NATO."

https://ua.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/u-s-ukraine-charter-strategic-partnership/#:~:text=Preamble,broad%20spectrum%20of%20mutual%20priorities.

This was reaffirmed in the Nov 2021 US-Ukraine Charter for Strategic Partnership which led to our situation today.

Five days before Russia invaded Zelensky requested a clear time frame for NATO membership.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/595040-zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-for-nato-membership/

The invasion started when the Russians realised that the process for NATO membership was in motion. Diplomacy failed so they carried out there promise to not stand idly by. An unnecessary war that they never wanted.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454725#Comment_119454725

The invasion started in 2014.

The process for NATO membership wasn't in motion. The reason Zelensky was requesting a clear timeframe was because Ukraine's membership was being put off and was going to likely to be put off indefinitely.

Also this whole thing is completely **** stupid anyway. Conquering Ukraine just adds NATO members on your border, and Russia has pulled troops from the soon-to-be NATO border with Finland. It has nothing to do with this whatsoever. Don't need to take our word for it, Russian commanders and politicians say it repeatedly - it is a war of colonial aggression against a country they do not consider should exist.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454780#Comment_119454780

The Crimea annexation in 2014 happened after the coup. The Ukraine becoming a formal NATO member process began in 2008 with the US-Ukraine Charter for Strategic Partnership as I mentioned in the post you are responding to. A full 6 years before the coup.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454832#Comment_119454832

The only partnership Ukraine are or were in with NATO was the European Partnership for peace, of which Russia and Ireland are also partners. By your reakoning Russia should invade Ireland and declare war on itself. But following the twisted garbage logic you spew here that does seem reasonable.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454832#Comment_119454832

Which shows how irrelevent it was. 2008.

Russia started its coercion against Ukraine not when it started NATO membership but when it was about to sign EU treaty.

You cant keep your lies straight.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455376#Comment_119455376

Keeping lies straight is impossible when you copy paste 500 word essays not of your own making from different sources.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454832#Comment_119454832

Well, if you go back even further to the late 90s and early 2000s, NATO was questioning its own raison d'etre. The Soviet Union was gone, but a lot of former Soviet States were very concerned that the new Russian Republic would go back to its old ways.

Well they were right, and I think no one could deny that if Vladimir Putinnwas not the leader of Russia, NATO would not exist anymore. Instead, Putin has reinvigorated NATO, reminding all European countries that Russia belives it has the right to meddle in its affairs and the only way to stop them is by a firm defensive alliance. Russias response to that is to try to destroy Ukraine and kill its people. No wonder they want to join NATO.

Sure even we (Ireland, in case that wasnt clear) were staunchy against taking sides during the height of the cold war, but we are now closer to joining NATO than ever before. The reason being that we have now developed strong links with Eastern European nations and we now understand their struggle for freedom. And we also know how Russia will use any excuse to take over a free nation.

I guess, in that context, I have ti ask you Bob, do you not understand how Russia operates in destroy nations, or do you just feel so safe living in Ireland that you think "itll never happen here" and that Russia would never invade Ireland because we toy with the idea of joining NATO. Because, while that risk is admittedly remote for Ireland, its very real for our Polish, Estonian and Lithuanian buddies!

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454725#Comment_119454725

In May 2002 Putin said (here)

http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/43122

that Ukraine was entitled to decide on its own whether to join NATO and that he did not see such a decision as one that would “cloud” Russian-Ukrainian relations.

Further, Russia signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act, pledging to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

As regards NATO membership, a country which is subject to partial occupation cannot join NATO - because that instantly triggers article 5 and a war between the US, Western Europe & Russia.

So no, after 2014 Ukraine could never join NATO - neither could Moldova nor Georgia (at least until after they fully expelled Russia).

Hence, fear of NATO cannot be an explanation for the 2022 Russian invasion.

pixelburp

The journo who protested the invasion live on Russian TV is facing the possibility of 10 years in prison. Assuming she doesn't suddenly, by total coincidence, have a heart-attack before she was to be shipped off to a gulag.

As I said two pages back, "competent leaders" don't need to prosecute and jail journalists pulling what amounted to Father Ted's "Down with this sort of thing" moment on TV. Her "crime", let's remember, was to do nothing but flourish a placard with "No war" written on it. That's it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/10/russian-journalist-who-protested-ukraine-war-live-on-tv-has-home-raided

This below action equates to 10 years' worth of punishment, 10 police officers raiding your house, and pre-trial detention.

https://youtu.be/URTrP1xHpQA

In other news, while not publicly confirmed, it seems like "partisans" struck a Russian air-base in Crimea on Tuesday, destroying scores of Russian airplanes. Satellite photography confirmed the destruction; I wonder how much of a fluke the result was, what kind of equipment was used here. That Ukraine can strike targets 150km+ from the front-lines might give Russia pause for thought.

XVII

>>Hence, fear of NATO cannot be an explanation for the 2022 Russian invasion.

Literally from your own link:

But President Putin stressed that Russia’s position on the expansion of the bloc remained unchanged.

If you happen to dig a bit more:

For a long time, Russia has opposed the eastward expansion of NATO. After the fall of the Soviet Union and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, Russian President Boris Yeltsin launched a transition to a market economy. The reforms, however, also brought high unemployment, inflation, and crippled the Russian military. Nonetheless, Washington went ahead with expanding its military alliance to include former Soviet states. Yeltsin's objections, including letters of protest to the Clinton administration and to leaders of France, Germany, and the United Kingdom, were easily ignored, given the other difficulties Russia was already facing.[197] As NATO's expansion continued under the U.S. president George W. Bush, Russia's opposition would also continue under Vladimir Putin, who would eventually intervene in Georgia and Crimea.[197] While not excusing Russia's acts of aggression, a number of Western scholars and officials have long voiced concerns that Russia would view NATO's expansion as unfriendly at best, and a threat to its security at worst, especially if the alliance ends up surrounding the country in the most ambitious version of its expansion plans. The disregard for Russia's concerns and warnings, such as Yeltsin's letters and Putin's statement at the 2007 Munich security conference, has been described as a policy and strategic blunder.[198]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Opposition_to_NATO's_enlargement

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119459507#Comment_119459507

XVII says:

Literally from your own link:

But President Putin stressed that Russia’s position on the expansion of the bloc remained unchanged.

To be precise, the Kremlin quoted Putin as saying that Ukraine was entitled to make the decision independently. He does not see it as something that could cloud the relations between Russia and Ukraine. But President Putin stressed that Russia’s position on the expansion of the bloc remained unchanged.

So are you suggesting that in fact when Putin said that, he was lying?

That from his perspective, Ukraine was not entitled to make the decision independently? And that from his perspective, Ukraine joining NATO would cloud relations between Russia & Ukraine if Ukraine tried to do so?

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455552#Comment_119455552

Even as recently as 2019, NATO was described as "brain-dead" - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50335257

pjcb

Genuinely confused. If Russia is occupying the Zaporizhzhia why are people saying they are shelling it.