Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119002906#Comment_119002906

What's the point of this post exactly?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003299#Comment_119003299

You don't remember saying that people don't care about what is going on in the Ukraine, the thread was dead and "Russia will take over the south corridor and the east and potentially a northern section to Belarus and on May 9th declare victory."

How is Putin going to take control of the above areas of Ukraine without destroying property, including the emergency accommodation you think should be built, and claim victory on the 9th?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000420#Comment_119000420

No disagreement from me there. First and foremost for me we need to get serious about having a legitimate defensive capability and not basically being freeloaders from a security/defense standpoint which is what we are doing right now. We should be working to gradually increase defense spending until it is in the 1.5% of gdp range no question IMHO. Cyber security as the HSE attack showed is a vital area of our security/defense that must be addressed as well. Whether we join NATO or a possible EU defense force is a debate we should be having as a country ( personally I support ending our military neutrality) but building up a legitimate defense capability is not up for debate it needs to happen. It's important for ourselves on its own but we also have a duty to play our part in not just our security but that of the EU as a whole.

Sam Russell

@eire4

I would favour an EU defence alliance rather than NATO because I would not trust the effect of being beholden to an American military force that had the likes of an American President like Trump or worse in charge.

We not only need more defence personnel. We need 50% more Gardai, and more robust cybersecurity that is built deep into all state computer systems, and policed effectively at many levels - Garda, Defence Personnel, Civil Service, plus the private sector.

bear1

For those that think no one is a threat to us and therefore we don't need to invest in our military..

https://m.independent.ie/videos/nuclear-underwater-drone-could-cause-tsunami-over-ireland-and-uk-says-russian-state-tv-41606632.html

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004686#Comment_119004686

Funnily enough one of the reasons that the eastern European countries are very keen on nato is that they feel they can count on Germany and France to drop them like a hot rock if it's in their national interest - I know leadship counts - but 1 Us president versus having to deal with each individual European head of state ..

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004712#Comment_119004712

Yea, well - I see your point. I think the Eastern countries, particularly the Baltic ones, are very vulnerable to a Russian attack and require heavy American military hardware as a backup to their Soviet era stuff.

However, the EU get there eventually.

I'm saddened to see the UK thinking that it is in their global interest to join the USA in military escapades in Iraq, Afghanistan, and even send their brand new aircraft carrier out to the South China Sea equipped not only with USA aircraft, but having to have them flown by USA Marines.

What price (and what wars) would we need to sign up to maintain membership of a military alliance led by the USA industrial military complex that drives the Pentagon, and USA foreign policy?

Dohnjoe

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1520769192517062656

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003418#Comment_119003418

Yeap I said that. Ukraine is more than the donbas. You can build accommodation in areas bigger than the size of the whole of Ireland. Lol

Another two Irish politicians on their way to Ukraine for holidays. How dangerous can it be when all these politicians and celebs are going over?

I don't remember so many politicians heading over the Afghanistan or Iraq. I mean... These lads need garda escorts to go to work yet they're happy to head to Ukraine. Explain that one to me please 🤣🤣🤣

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004686#Comment_119004686

I would agree with that and I tend to favour an EU defensive alliance myself as well rather then NATO and Ireland joining that and ending our military neutrality.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005895#Comment_119005895

Perhaps, with an EU defence alliance, we might not have to end our neutrality.

It would be mutual defence with no requirement for offence, so perhaps that would still us to be neutral.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005768#Comment_119005768

Why this constant "explain that" Alex Jones style contrarianism? It's as obvious as it is disingenuous.

Presuming you aren't following the news. The danger in Ukraine is relative. At the moment cities like Kyiv and Lviv are struck by missiles but only sporadically. This means that foreign heads of state, etc can visit, however there is always some risk. For example, the UN head visited last week and at the same time Russian cruise missiles hit the area. Closer to the front-lines is obviously much more risky.

Few European governments supported the war in Iraq, so most official visits were from the US/UK. However with Ukraine, which is a very different conflict, the Ukrainians are being supported directly by many European countries (arming, supplying them) who also want to visit to show their support/solidarity.

fly_agaric

Ukraine already has a very large number of internally displaced persons to deal with (this is considerably larger than numbers of refugees in the EU). see:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60555472

More than 11 million people are believed to have fled their homes in Ukraine since the conflict began, according to the United Nations.

As well as the 5.3 million who have left for neighbouring countries, another 6.5 million people are thought to be displaced inside the war-torn country itself.

Am sure any load the EU can take off them as regards providing some safety and shelter during the war is very welcome and a good use of resources.

Also, people like pussyhands bringing up some random Middle Eastern or Asian country (Iraq, Afghanistan) where there was or is war/instability and then comparing responses to that vs this as some sort of gotcha is stupid. The wars there have nothing to do with Ireland, usually very little to do with any EU country.

Don't like comparing tragedies but if one must do so, this war in Ukraine is also on quite a different scale I think. Possible consequences of it are also far more serious. Certainly more serious for us here in Europe, but I think eventually it will sink in far further afield too, especially if Russia/Putin actually get some kind of "win" out of their brazen invasion/conquest attempt (even at an horrendous cost) as pussyhands seems to expect, or maybe even hopes for.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005935#Comment_119005935

We are only neutral militarily we are not neutral otherwise and really IMHO that nuanced distinction is a joke. We are part of the western world we believe in democracy and living in free and open societies.

Sam Russell

We are not only neutral militarily, we are militarily neutered.

We could not intervene anywhere as we have no actual capability. We cannot even patrol the fisheries for which we are responsible. Our patrol vessels are tied up in port for want of crews.

That needs correction, and now.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004699#Comment_119004699

How could we even defend against what is outlined in that link? The actual target, the UK, is a NATO country. We would simply be collateral damage.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006502#Comment_119006502

I don't think you could defend against that certainly not us anyway. Maybe the UK or the USA could if one of there Nuclear Submarines was able to locate it and stop it. I think it is just more scaremongering from a brainwashed Russian propaganda media trying to say no matter where the Ukranians go they will never be safe.

Let's hope it never happens.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006786#Comment_119006786

Has the Russian public gone mad?

They imagine that they can somehow benefit from making nuclear threats?

As if there could be any winners in a nuclear showdown.

Is this just about playing to Putin's gullible public that they are afraid will turn on him if not fed with the intoxication of vicarious power?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007131#Comment_119007131

The very mention of it being used opens up the nuclear box. The other side will calculate (I'm sure they have already worked out the various scenarios) that getting the first strike in would be best if it were to go likely that way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005768#Comment_119005768

So how is putin going to achieve this victory without destroying the emergency accommodation?

Off the top of my head I can think of four Irish politicians who visited Iraq.

As for politicians or anyone else on their way to Ukraine for their holidays, has to be one of the more moronic but unsurprising statements I've heard in a while.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006502#Comment_119006502

We wouldn't but someone said "who'd attacks us, who's our threat"? As if we are loved and safe from anyone and anything.

Not even 24 hours later and the Russians come out with that, which is a threat.

So for me, we should be investing as much as possible.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004699#Comment_119004699

Not a great example. An upgraded military wouldn't be of any use against that type of attack.

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008251#Comment_119008251

Yeah, get a fleet of nuclear subs for Ireland...

This war is certainly all the reason the ammosexuals need.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008259#Comment_119008259

But more examples are needed to show that we face threats?

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008311#Comment_119008311

You seem very very anti defense spending but yet you believe everything should stay as it is because we've other things that need money?

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008392#Comment_119008392

The Irish armed forces could certainly do with a few upgrades, but it has to make sense. Buying dozens of fighterjets and setting up an impenetrable missile defence system would be excessive. Adding more navy patrol vessels or upgrading the radar systems would certainly be sensible.

Yes, I am very anti-defense spending. No-one should ever want to spend money on stuff that has no other purpose in life than to either gather dust in some munitions depot or kill people and that costs billions. It is the most idiotic thing any country could spend money on. You only get this stuff because you *have to*. And I am advocating sending as much weapons to Ukraine as anyhow possible. Anything they ask for. Because they really, really need it. But buying shiney new toys because someone has a hard-on for that stuff is the worst possible reason to buy that sh*t.

One has to keep in mind that the defensive needs of Ireland are different to those of, say, Ukraine or Taiwan.

What did you have in mind? And I do mean this as a sincere question.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Although more countries joining NATO has some possible relevance to Ukraine, this has all gone seriously off topic.

People are free to start a new thread on Ireland joining NATO or increasing its military spending (in fact there are a few similar ones already in this forum).

The topic is Ukraine. Please bear that in mind.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119007131#Comment_119007131

You don't get it do you? Are you surprised?

It's not the Russian public making these threats - it's the Russian thuggish kleptocracy, the mafia leadership, Putin's apparatus.

There's nothing new here. This is how they think and what they are - thugs who threaten others and kill others. They are just showing their feathers. Russia is really comparable to North Korea in terms of propaganda.

By the way, these propaganda stunts are primarily for domestic population control and brainwashing (see 1984 by George Orwell).

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008427#Comment_119008427

Seeing as we are indeed bringing the topic off topic so to speak I'll just answer your last point and then I'll leave it at that.

I didn't advocate buying subs etc, we have no air force to defend our skies and we have no adequate navy to defend our coasts. We have no radar at all, let alone one to upgrade.

These are serious gaps, there is nothing to stop any country from simply walking in. Should we have 100 jets? Maybe not, should we have aircraft carriers, no. But we should have a radar system that will warn us who is in our airspace, we should have the planes necessary to deter any illegal incursions and we should have the navy to be able to have the ships needed to go long range and have the weapons necessary to defend.

We have fixed rotary aircraft, they are simply not up to the job of defending out skies and relying on the UK for me is simply idiotic. Then a complete overhaul of the weapons our army needs should also be examined but for god's sake let's have some sort of army that is paid what they deserve and have the tools necessary to do their job.

Sam Russell

'By the way, these propaganda stunts are primarily for domestic population control and brainwashing (see 1984 by George Orwell).'

I have always thought it ironic that the Russian Embassy is in Orwell Road. I wonder if it was a deliberate choice?