Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227651#Comment_119227651

Incorrect, Ukraine don't need as many MLRS systems as they have requested. As has been already posted here, the bottleneck with HIMARs would be the pods. 4-8 HIMARs will have a significant impact on the front line as long as they get enough pods.

Russia don't really have the capacity to accurately strike anything from afar. It's just dumb artillery from the 1900s from a country that's stuck in the 1700s. They just don't do surgical precision. It's WWI creeping barage with disposable soldiers into the grinder.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227778#Comment_119227778

Russia don't really have the capacity to accurately strike anything from afar. It's just dumb artillery from the 1900s from a country that's stuck in the 1700s. They just don't do surgical precision. It's WWI creeping barage with disposable soldiers into the grinder.

The Russians have been striking rail hubs, bridges, factories and recently a tunnel connecting west Ukraine with Hungary. You do not get that level of distance or precision with "dumb artillery from the 1900s".

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227879#Comment_119227879

But then, the Russian haven’t been able to replace whatever smart ordnance they’ve expended and continue to expend, because components embargo on everything with 0s and 1s in it, not only that goes into missiles and smart bombs, but also -and just as importantly- that machines, mills, turns, lathes, cuts <etc,etc etc> metals and materials to fashion the said missiles and smart bombs from rawer materials.

That pile of Russian smart ammunition is getting awfully small. Likewise the volume of flying and driving, electronics-heavy hardware designed to launch it, just as difficult to replace, for the exact same reasons.

Whilst still capable of some precision striking…it’s well-established and published by western intelligence, that the Russians are down to WW2 style rolling barrages in the Donbas. No shortage of dumb ammunition. It’s far less capable and effective, however, hence the need to use it in volume. Same story with Russia taking T62s out of mothballs recently, rather than making more T80s and upgrading more T72s.

pixelburp

Or to quote Pershing, Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars.

Russia's logistics were questionable before the war started and they're stretching things at this point. Meanwhile, assuming Western support continues for Ukraine, the invaded country will have the pick of intelligence, equipment and training, backed up by a supply chain the Russians can't match.

To reshare a video, Wendover did a good breakdown on Russia's supply chain, one that is great within Russia itself - but insufficient outside.

https://youtu.be/b4wRdoWpw0w

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119223050#Comment_119223050

Example?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226053#Comment_119226053

Parliament:

Islamic Republic of Iran also has a Parliament. Which in fact, is MORE democratic than Duma (minorities represented).

Elections:

Former Communist Block countries in CEE also had elections from 1945-1989 - Communist Party always got 97% of the votes, surprisingly...similar to the Crimean referendum. What a coincidence! 😎😅

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227012#Comment_119227012

So you're getting my point now. The Macron's and now also Scholz's "we need to talk and not humiliate Putin" is wrong.

Yes keep a diplomatic channel open but don't engage.

Total defeat of Russia is the only way here. Always been. They won't yield, they are monsters. Only when hit hard they will agree to a ceasefire and then breach it once they get a break and recharge. See First Chechen War.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226262#Comment_119226262

An autocracy with a democratic false front; a smiling facemask on a wolf, a Potemkin ''democracy''.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228806#Comment_119228806

For reference as the term might not be known to everyone:

In politics and economics, a Potemkin village (Russian: потёмкинские деревни, romanized: potyómkinskiye derévni) is any construction (literal or figurative) whose sole purpose is to provide an external façade to a country that is faring poorly, making people believe that the country is faring better.

The term comes from stories of a fake portable village built by Grigory Potemkin, former lover of Empress Catherine II, solely to impress the Empress during her journey to Crimea in 1787.

While modern historians agree that accounts of this portable village are exaggerated, the original story was that Potemkin erected phony portable settlements along the banks of the Dnieper River in order to impress the Russian Empress and foreign guests; the structures would be disassembled after she passed, and re-assembled farther along her route to be viewed again as if another example.

The whole Russian "state" (organised crime - mafia) is really a Potemkin village. Facades of facades. Lies in lies nested in lies.

I actually didn't know the term originated in Crimea and along the Dnieper 🇺🇦

You learn new things every day.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226018#Comment_119226018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119225985#Comment_119225985

See from the last 20 odd responses, NO_ONE believes your lies. The fact is you don't believe them yourself, you just spout the lie that Russia is a democracy to create an argument ie you are trolling because nobody including you is stupid enough to swallow that line.

NEXT

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229530#Comment_119229530

Dear God this is like being at the Salem witch trials. Once more. I'm not trying to convince you that Russian democracy is fantastic. I was merely trying to prove to someone else with a Wikipedia link that Russia is not a one Party Nazi State. I merely said that Russia has elections, opposition parties and a parliament as opposed to the Nazi's in Germany after 1936. Which it does. I sent you the Wikipedia link saying that it does.

Therefore the fact that you keep bringing up this accusation that I'm a liar is in itself a lie. There is a campaign here to prove that I'm a liar so that my input is disregarded and I'm not having it. I have never lied on here and never will. I am interested in the truth and the fact that all any of you have found as evidence of lies over 100 posts is this technical semantic disagreement is in itself proof that I'm not a liar.

Now as the moderator asked can we please move on from this. I am not a witch. Honestly.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229968#Comment_119229968

No you "SAID" Russia is a liberal democracy. That is demonstrably a lie.

NEXT

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230196#Comment_119230196

Completely agree Paul, purporting that Russia is a liberal democracy is farcical. Whatever credence one might give to other points made, is very much undermined by failing to retract such a ludicrous assertion.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230280#Comment_119230280

Here goes! ,! Democracy is practised in ireland as well as in Russia. Hurling is played in Limerick as well as in Dönegal. And football ins played in Kilkenny as well as in Kerry. Do joy want me to go on with more examples? How seriously these things are practiced and at what level is not up for discussion or debate!!!!

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230569#Comment_119230569

I have yet to see umbrellas containing chemicals or nuclear isotopes used to poison opposition players in hurling or football matches in Kerry/Donegal/Limerick.

There is no debate about Russian democracy. It simply does not exist and to assert otherwise is 1 of 2 things, deliberately disingenuous (a liar) or utterly naive (stupid)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230569#Comment_119230569

Sometimes the only response to nonsense is nonsense :)

The 'practice' of democracy, or rather the pretence of democracy that goes on in Russia does not a democracy make.

Anymore than merely not having the exact same structure as Nazi Germany in 1938 does. Utter strawman nonsense.

To call it a liberal democracy is a bare faced lie.

Russia murders and jails its own citizens who protest the regime.

It bombed civilian refuges in Ukraine and then lied that Ukraine did it.

It executed civilains on the side of roads in Bucha and then lied that Ukraine made it up.

It sent in Neo nazi mercenaries to Ukraine to commit atrocities and then lies that it is Ukraine to denazify it.

It violates the Budapest agreement by invading Crimea, then lies the Budapest agreement only covered the use of nuclear weapons, then lies that Ukraine violated it! From Wiki:

In February 2016, Sergey Lavrov claimed, "Russia never violated Budapest memorandum. It contained only one obligation, not to attack Ukraine with nukes."[37] However, Canadian journalist Michael Colborne pointed out that "there are actually six obligations in the Budapest Memorandum, and the first of them is 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine'". Colborne also pointed out that a broadcast of Lavrov's claim on the Twitter account of Russia's embassy in the United Kingdom actually "provided a link to the text of the Budapest Memorandum itself with all six obligations, including the ones Russia has clearly violated – right there for everyone to see."

When such lies are posted on this thread, they must be challenged, and those previous lies establish there is no credibility in new claims made without sources, without foundation.

Russia is the source of proven lies.

So to call it a liberal democracy is an insult to those victims of the gangster fascist dictatorship.

Russia is following so much of the Nazi playbook, at home and abroad, which is why I described it as being the country in Europe most like Nazi Germany and if any country needs denazification, or even better genuine liberal democracy, it is Russia itself.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230196#Comment_119230196

Sorry if people are bored to death with this argument as I am but I have to clear this up as I'm not having these false accusations stick.

Here is the basic description of a liberal democracy in Wikipedia.

"Liberal democracy emphasises the separation of powers, an independent judiciary and a system of checks and balances between branches of government. Multi-party systems with at least two persistent, viable political parties are characteristic of liberal democracies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Separation of Powers/Checks & Balances

If you type in "Is there a separation of Powers in Russia?" into Google you get this snapshot description of the separation of powers with the link below it.

"The 1993 constitution declares Russia a democratic, federative, law-based state with a republican form of government. State power is divided among the legislative, executive, and judicial branches."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Russia

So that means officially yes there is a separation of powers in Russia.

Independent Judiciary

If you type "Is there an independent judiciary in Russia?" into Google you get this snapshot description with the link below it.

"Russia has a trifurcated court system, with constitutional, ordinary (including military and non-military), and other courts. The Constitutional Court of Russia is considered a separate, independent court."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Russia

So that means officially Yes there is an Independent Judiciary.

Multi-party systems

If you type in "Is there a multi party system in Russia?" into Google you get this snapshot description with the link below it.

"The Russian Federation has a multi-party system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Russia

Therefore according to all of the requirements for a liberal democracy to be confirmed, Russia does indeed have all of the requirements in its constitution and legislature. I, like you, obviously have no doubt whatsoever that Putin and his party know how to manipulate each section of the structure to their own benefit. That's not the issue here.

The issue here was whether I lied when I stated that Russia is a liberal democracy and the above proves that I didn't.

Now can we please move on.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230940#Comment_119230940

All utter tosh, I don't even have to read more than 5 words to see the first LIE. Independent judiciary, UTTER LIE!!!!!

Russia has NO death penalty, yet 1 week ago a death sentence was handed down to 2 Ukrainian/British citizens who are soldiers of Ukraines armed force.

If you don't as you say want "accusations of telling lies" to stand then stop telling and/or repeating obvious lies!

It would bore me to read any more of your post than the first line because you have repeated lies continually here and lied in the first line of that last reponse.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230940#Comment_119230940

Show us an actual instance of where these checks and balances curtailed the power of Putin.

You've have to be an idiot to think that what Russia 'declares' is what is reality. Just look at the lies they said about the Budapest agreement.

So yes, it's a Big Lie to say that Russia is a liberal democracy. Anyone who claims that russia is a liberal democracy is spreading falsehood.

Whether you believe it or not, your posts contain proven lies about the budapest agreement, this is another one.

In February 2016, Sergey Lavrov claimed, "Russia never violated Budapest memorandum. It contained only one obligation, not to attack Ukraine with nukes."[37] However, Canadian journalist Michael Colborne pointed out that "there are actually six obligations in the Budapest Memorandum, and the first of them is 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine'". Colborne also pointed out that a broadcast of Lavrov's claim on the Twitter account of Russia's embassy in the United Kingdom actually "provided a link to the text of the Budapest Memorandum itself with all six obligations, including the ones Russia has clearly violated – right there for everyone to see."

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231069#Comment_119231069

Yes. Arguing with someone without reading what they wrote. Classy.

You're obviously a very intelligent individual Paul. Best of luck.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231167#Comment_119231167

Your first line was a lie after repeating lies for pages of lies. Sod class, I have no tol,erance for people who lie and less for those who tell lies in support of despotic regimes.

If you don't like being called up for false assertions I simply don't care.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231167#Comment_119231167

You didn't write it. You copied and pasted it from Wikipedia and left out the important bits which completely undermine the 'spin' \ deliberate attempt at deception you undertook. I've copied and pasted them below from the page you linked to so you must accept it as a source? Or were lying then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Russia

Russia corrupt country. Corrupt judiciary. Where the honest are killed, exiled or forced to resign or just cowed.

Where's Putin's most outspoken opponent is jailed for defrauding a timber company in a show trial!

Where you can be jailed for holding a blank page in public! That's a liberal democracy? Pull the other one. Calling it a liberal democracy is a lie and an insult to its victims at home and abroad. Whether you believe it or are just brain washed, end result is that your posts are exercises in spreading proven lies.

Constitutional Court Judge and Council of Judges member Vladimir Yaroslavtsev, in a 2009 interview with the Spanish newspaper El País, claimed that the presidential executive office and security services had undermined judicial independence in Russia.[51] Constitutional Court Judge Anatoly Kononov, who had frequently dissented from decisions taken by the majority of the court, in his interview to Sobesednik supported Yaroslavtsev, claiming that there was no independent judiciary in Russia.[52]There have been accusations of systematic attempts to undermine jury trials, including juror intimidation and bribery, and systematic trial delays.[53] The number of jury trials remains small, at about 600 per year, out of about 1 million trials.[53] Lawmakers are continuously chipping away at what types of criminal offenses merit a jury trial.[53] Juries have granted acquittals in 15-20% of cases, compared with less than 1% in cases decided by judges.[53] Juries may be dismissed and skeptical juries have been dismissed on the verge of verdicts, and acquittals are frequently overturned by higher courts.

Yurt2

I know this thread has a different moderation policy to the Russia thread in CA.

It's paying the price for it now. It's an open invitation for re-reg, revisionist, propaganda peddling and fascist admiring Putinist amoeba to infect and wreck anything approaching an adult conversation about the conflict.

My advice? Scorched earth. Ban them as soon as they post.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231217#Comment_119231217

I've shown that technically Russia is a liberal democracy to prove I'm not a liar. That's all I care about. Its written into its constitution whether any of you like it or not.

How that constitution is circumvented is a separate issue. How you and I all view the constitution is also a separate issue.

Its officially a Liberal Democracy. That's the argument. That's what I proved. Everything else is subjective.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231232#Comment_119231232

You don't see the irony in this silencing of contrary views at all do you?

Putin would hire you in a second.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231303#Comment_119231303

No, you have shown no such thing.

Anymore than calling a country the German Democratic Republic made it either a Democracy or a Republic.

Or calling an invasion a 'special military operation' makes it any less of an invasion.

You are unable to point to a single instance where this 'liberal democracy' actually acted like one. Because it is actions that matter, not the fabric of lies on a page that is Russia's constitution. You cannot be a liberal democracy if that is not what actually occurs in the country.

Even the wikipedia page you linked to discredited your claim entirely!

To suggest that is a 'subjective' opinion is utterly without merit or foundation.

It's obvious you don't care about the truth or reality of things. Only whatever the official Russian line is which you then propagate onto this thread. That is the 'truth' you accept, which of course is not the truth of things and explains the lies you have posted on this thread.

Your posts have zero credibility. Whatever you think you're achieving here, you are just making it even more obvious to the other posters how corrupt Russia is and how wrong its actions in Ukraine are. The propaganda you're spreading ain't fooling anyone here.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231320#Comment_119231320

There is a significant difference between having a reasoned opinion based on fact supported by evidence, and re-reging to repeat lies with no basis in support of a despicable political regime.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231320#Comment_119231320

Putinists have nothing to say.

Eviscerating them from a thread like this is a net benefit for everybody.

Even you. You could instead spend your time educating yourself, and questioning what went wrong with your values that you're mounting a defence of a fascist creep.

bobowen

"Eviscerating them from a thread like this is a net benefit for everybody."

Classic Putin speak. Say it in a Russian accent to yourself for a laugh.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231379#Comment_119231379

Classic failure to understand the difference between freedom and licence.