Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119245608#Comment_119245608

"That was a great post"

It really wasn't. On first scan I can pinpoint at least half a dozen brazen, outright, and absolutely baseline full of sh*t propaganda items that Kremlinites and right-wing and other crank edgelords are pushing around the skeezier parts of the internet looking home in naive people's skulls.

We're not thickos in here, we're media literate and know garbage when we see it.

I'll say it again, posts like that shouldn't be permitted in threads like this. It's not even trying to be in the realm of objective truth and verifiable fact. The game that posters like that are running is this: find any window to throw lies up in the air and see what sticks with people. Repeat ad nauseum.

And addressing your post directly, the tiny violin you have out for yourself about being accused of being a bot etc etc. Boo hoo. If you're playing with fascist propaganda, think it's a lark and that it deserves the same amount of esteem as posters doing their best to post with clean hands and observable truths within a bandwith of reasonable disagreement, well...get used to it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119245117#Comment_119245117

Ukraine is corrupt. Russia is corrupt. Two corrupt countries in a war. So should we just let them at it?! I think Ukraine breaking out from its past was heading in the right direction, Putin didnt like it been more westernised, becoming a more wealthy neighbour. Ukraine has a bad past, but most of its population is innocent to it, and are fighting for the right causes in Ukraine. I think the west are holding back on their full military support, so I dont know how it will turn out in Ukraine. I think if Putin wins, then for sure it will be thrown back into its corrupt past and god knows what stuff the russians are going to do to the country, given what happened in Bucha. Or if even we would hear about it, as Im sure it would be silenced by Russian propaganda.

Guaranteed the Ukrainians dont want to go back living under the soviet union.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246202#Comment_119246202

We dont know what Putins goals are, if he orders a full mobilisation, the war could on for the next few years.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244504#Comment_119244504

Drones or no drones, the old-fashioned methods of target acquisition still work. However, observation/recon drones are much smaller than Bayraktars or Grey Eagles, and they seem to be still flying around.

4 units isn't going to make a massive difference, even if they are far better than the rockets Ukraine and Russia is using right now. That said, they are getting more than four, and they are supposedly receiving M270 MLRS as well (Same system, twice the payload). Exactly what they would be used for likely would depend on the type of ammunition supplied, and the reports are a bit more quiet about that. MLRS was originally developed as a counter-battery system. Long range, known as a grid square removal system, using cluster munitions. These rockets remain in the US inventory, neither the US nor Ukraine (or Russia) have signed any treaties to not use them. They can make life very, very bad for Russian artillery units, they are cheap, they are effective. Counter-battery radar figures out where the opposition artillery is, the HIMARS operator plugs in the grid co-ordinates, the computer takes care of the rest. The round is also quite effective against tank formations. Would have been wonderful in defending against those river crossings.

For those who have moral qualms with cluster munitions, there is an "Alternative Warhead" developed for the rocket to do much the same job, which is basically a massive rocket-delivered claymore. It will be plenty effective against towed artillery crews and massed personnel targets, though I am suspicious of the claims of effectiveness against armored artillery being as effective as the old DPICM. In any case, for towed artillery, a battery of four launchers will deliver 24 of these rounds over an area, it'll do the job.

The unitary warhead is a bit more interesting, as you want to aim at a stationary target. With the DPICM or AW warheads being better suited for counter-artillery purposes, and the unitary not suited at all for moving targets, it'll have a precision strike capability. I'm sure they'll kick around using it on buildings, logistical nodes and the like, maybe bridges.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119245117#Comment_119245117

"Putin is.... But" - a classic smoking gun of a Kremlin bot, KGB provocateur, or other Free World adversary

Talking offseeding:

Go and seed your poisonous obnoxious weed seeds in Novosibirsk. 🤮

McGiver

Reporters without Borders have published a report on the death of the journalist Maks Levin and the conclusion is that he was murdered (executed) by the Red Army.

https://rsf.org/en/exclusive-rsf-investigation-death-maks-levin-information-and-evidence-collected-indicates?fbclid=IwAR0cRe5tjbaIs6JhmiyN08e-HnjqlUuO0904tMKPauoiARoL-8ZSOnJWfCk&fs=e&s=cl

There's absolutely no doubt that Russian Army remains to be the same as it always has been for last 100+ years - an army of brutal barbaric animals.

McGiver

In other news, the supposed "liberators" have been found liberating Ukraine by dismantling and stealing solar panels from the largest Ukrainian solar powered plant (100 hectares and about 50 MW output).

Nothing but thieves, murderers and thugs. The whole world knows it.

https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/24/confirmed-the-occupiers-are-dismantling-and-stealing-the-tokmak-solar-energy-solar-power-plant/

McGiver

Russian Duma "MP" Gurulev casually describes his plans of the WW3 and how London needs to be bombed first. Other people in the studio are looking at a map of Europe which looks like some sort of a board game...

https://youtu.be/3sLuck88IXQ

When the substance is missing (living standards, wealth, technology, industry) one needs to resort to this, I guess 😀

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119245117#Comment_119245117

Is this part one of a trilogy?. Am looking forward to part two ie on Putin/Russia . Let’s hope that yyou are not Russian or Ukarnian so part three will be on your own country. Having done such a detailed ‘report ‘on Ukraine serious Boardies here are entitled to a bit of balance. On your Russian report- , hopefully, if you do it you might use the same ‘categories of bad actions’ but feel free to mention other actions that the Ukrain has not been involved in up to date eg poisoning dissidents no matter where they are, manufacturing trucked up charges to ‘put people away’. These facts are easy to get verified

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246883#Comment_119246883

But I keep being told that it's actually The West who are the real warmongers? I just don't understand how a country almost pridefully, viciously hostile towards its geographical neighbours could be the bad guy???

Said it before and I'll say it again: I don't subscribe to accusing people of being bots, but if your thumping, contrarian armchair politics declared all things Western as interventionist and inherently antagonistic, what do you do when a situation like this comes around where your preferred Superpower finally casts its eyes on a European prize?

Mea Culpa? Of course not, Sunk Cost all the way down and simply squint harder so actually, it's Nazis. It's corruption. It's anti-russian language discrimination from Ukraine. It's corruption. It's Russia forced to act cos Ukraine dared to look away. It's NATO stirring the pot (sidebar, Mick Wallace and his ilk will hopefully be turfed out of office for their part).

It's anything but the simple fact a historically belligerent country still yearning for its empire back, whether it's Soviet flavoured or Czarist, decided to invade a nation it has regarded as Illegitimate for years. Theirs was an absolutist rule,

I also said already that "Russia" is probably the best candidate for the Superpower most likely to collapse in our lifetimes. I can't speak to any separatist movements east of Moscow but Its demographics are going the wrong way, to the point I believe Chinese ethnicity is beginning to creep into eastern regions. Its economy is in the toilet and is basically a kleptocracy. Once Putin dies all bets are off: I'd not rule out a proper civil war. There was already one, or thereabouts, post USSR and by their media they obviously still out great stock in violence as a First Resort.

kleefarr

I back those views. You can't make and informed decision until you have both sides of the story.

I don't know if anyone else saw, right at the beginning of the whole episode, a woman they interviewed briefly in the street in Kiev said 'they are shooting their own people'.

You could see she was terrified but still it was never shown again.

From the beginning I had a feeling, this as in most other wars the USA got involved in were manufactured for gain.

Its a MAD WORLD, one where unspeakable things happen.

People are getting away with murder. 😞

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

If you advance a factual situation and are asked to provide links to support same, you must do so, and from reliable, or at the very least identifable sources.

Otherwise it will be treated as just conspiracy theory stuff or misinformation

kleefarr

Not sure how to post links to things that have disappeared without trace.

But Clare Daly seems to be on the right track.

Politics in general, corrupt to the core...

https://fb.watch/dSvQpZKF_9/

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246412#Comment_119246412

OK, Russian GDP per head is much higher than Ukraine's (pre-war, of course). but this does not necessarily correlate with living standards (i.e household disposable income). Also, various economic and military shocks make comparisons difficult. I can offer the following from NASDAQ: "The annexation of Crimea in 2014 coupled with plummeting oil prices in 2014-2015 cut Ukraine’s GDP by over 50% from its all-time high in just two years. Though Russia’s economy is about ten times larger than Ukraine’s in terms of GDP, Ukraine’s GDP grew 70.8% from 2015 to 2020 while Russia’s advanced only 8.8% in that same time frame". (https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/russia-vs.-ukraine%3A-an-economic-comparison )

Whatever about average income measures, I would think that the vast income and wealth of the Russian oligarchy means that inequalities of income and wealth are rather extreme. While Ukraine has an oligarchical problem as well, it does not have the same huge rents from oil and gas.

As for the looting, just read any reputable media reports on what's been happening.

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247128#Comment_119247128

ROTFL!

Clare Daly is not so much off the right track, but completely derailed and heading for the funny farm, considering the BS she spouts.

She is an idiot. A useful idiot, I suppose, for everyone who supports the Russian invasion and military occupation of Ukraine.

Dufflecoat Fanny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246883#Comment_119246883

They're like ould barflys giving out and threatening everyone. soulless creatures

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247639#Comment_119247639

You would think we would have laws in all countries forbidding that kind of rhetoric.

My local sales assistant had the idea at the start of the conflict that "we"should march to Moscow.

Now he is warning me of revolution if the supplies of gas run out here.

bobowen

A western media France24 report on citizen's in Lysichansk and their views on the Russians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=12&v=CcQJJIvakwo&feature=emb_logo

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246958#Comment_119246958

You make it more complicated than it is.

Russia state are organised crime mafia greedy thugs who lie, cheat, steal, murder, kidnap and exile people - lies are a tool to keep power, power is only a tool to steal massive amounts of money. It's that simple. The only objective of the Russian regime is the survival of the mafia. There's no deeper philosophy or geopolitics or whatever.

Rather than civil war, I would expect disintegration into "Republics" and maybe some local conflicts. But if the mafia localised itself in each of the realms then it could be interesting (imagine Mad Max).

Speaking of which:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/putin-using-ukraine-war-russia-independence-moscow-1698699

Note: Russia is absolutely NOT a superpower. Nuclear yes, super no. Regional power at best. Turkey could beat them easily.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246923#Comment_119246923

Or terrorist attacks on foreign territory perpetrated by the same KGB (sorry GRU) agents as the poisoning of dissidents on foreign territory.

Noting this as it might not be known to the Irish audience.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/04/20/senior-gru-leader-directly-involved-with-czech-arms-depot-explosion/

Czech authorities have established that Anatoly Chepiga and Alexander Mishkin, the same GRU agents who in 2018 poisoned Sergei Skripal in the UK, were responsible for the explosion. The two men travelled from Moscow to Prague a few days before the explosion using the same GRU-issued passports they would later use to travel to the UK in 2018. Prior to arriving in Czechia, they had booked a business appointment at the ammunition warehouse in Vrbětice using untraceable email addresses and a different set of GRU-issued passports. Once in Czechia, they were issued with a permit authorising them to be in Vrbětice on 16 October 2014 – the same day the explosion occurred. The findings of the Czech authorities have been verified by an independent investigation conducted by Bellingcat, the Insider, Der Spiegel, and Respekt.cz.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247953#Comment_119247953

Those guys are not representative of anyone in Ukraine. If they are saying "I want Russia to win" in the middle of a brutal Russian invasion, then they are hardcore pro-Putin bigots....let them to move to their favourite dictatorship if that is their attitude.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247128#Comment_119247128

I dont understand. She says she supports Ukraines right to join the EU if they want, states that they cant join while in an active state of war and then.....condemns the EU countries for providing weapons for Ukraine to defend itself.

Without Western support, the war will be a lot longer and bloodier. She should be encouraging more weapons to be sent sooner, so that they can end the war and join the EU.

That is of course if she does actually support their right to join the EU if they want.

So is she on the right track to say that the Ukraine should join the EU if they want, or is she on the right track to criticise the weapons being given to them. Because these seem to be trains heading in polar opposite directions.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248234#Comment_119248234

Surely they are representative of 40% odd ethnic Russian population of Donbas. Not sure what percentage are ethnic Russian now but would hazard a guess that its a higher percentage of a much reduced population

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248389#Comment_119248389

Being a Russian first language speaker or even a Russian ethnic does not translate into being pro-Putin or pro-"special military operation".

The mood in the Donbas puppet republics has radically soured towards Moscow since they realised they were sold a pup, and a lot of friends and relatives of Russian ethnics on the other side of the line of contact have had the scales fall from their eyes as well.

It's no accident the "true believer" on the France 24 video was a babushka pensioner - a generation that came of age in the Brezhnev era and would have been thoroughly propagandized and vulnerable to propaganda in the 21st century.

Talk to some of the refugees in Ireland if you get the chance, a hell of a lot of them are Russian speakers and Russian ethnics from that region. You won't get the response of the babushka from the video.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248389#Comment_119248389

From what I've read, large numbers of people of Russian heritage in the south and east were quite favourably disposed towards Russia before the war and thought of them as 'brothers' and a friendly nation - but the war and widespread destruction has changed everything. To hear the individuals in this video saying "I want Russia to win" and attacking the Ukrainian nation is more than a bit jarring.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248448#Comment_119248448

Its because they want the war to end and feel they would be safer with the Russians in charge. Their city has been fought over for the last 8 years. Apparently buses are running and schools are open again in Mariupol. The beach has been cleared of mines and people are sun bathing. They just crave some of that security and peace perhaps.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248408#Comment_119248408

But wouldn't the young men fighting and dying for the LPR army in their thousands be the grandchildren of these Babushka's?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248665#Comment_119248665

Talk to the mothers and grandmothers whose children and grandchildren have been forced into fighting in service of Putin's illegitimate fascist puppet states.

It's a waste of time replying to you. You have nothing to say.

bobowen

You were implying that pro Russian sentiment in the Donbass is predominantly the older generations who grew up in the USSR. I was saying the opposite. That the younger generation are fighting and dying in their thousands and feel the same way as these people. That the people in the Donbass region see the Russians as liberators not invaders or murderers as they are usually described as in our media.

Is the opposite of what you say nothing simply because its the opposite of what you say?

pixelburp

To use the unscientific sample of one, my Ukrainian, russian speaking colleague spoke plainly that if required, and drafted, he'd have to stop working and fight for his country.

I don't doubt the issue of Russian speaking Ukrainians is complex, every ethnicity and cultural variant contains issues of self, but complexity can be quickly eroded by your formerly presumed kin shelling and attacking your homes, family, and neighbours.