Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482198#Comment_119482198

I don't think might is right. I am a realist. Superpowers use smaller countries as pawns in their geopolitical maneuverings. That's how the world has worked for a long time now. To think otherwise is delusional.

Its a proxy war instigated by the United States starting with the coup in Kiev in 2014. Ukrainians are caught in the middle of this proxy war. The Russians tried diplomacy for 14 years before invading. The war was completely unnecessary and Zelensky has sent thousands of his countrymen to death and injury for the hegemonic aims of the United States. History books in future times will not be kind to him for being led up the primrose path by Biden.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482299#Comment_119482299

Russia never wanted to unmake it. Everything was fine between the two countries until the US started getting involved. Ukraine became a threat to Russia's security with its US interference and Far right idealogues in its security and army. That's the reality.

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482318#Comment_119482318

It's deluded ramblings

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482110#Comment_119482110

Finland doesn't have 8 million Russians with in its borders that have been discriminated against and bombed for the last 8 years. Nor have they allowed Americans and Nazi's to run their army.

Could you imagine what the Azov battalion would have done to those 8 million people if Ukraine had successfully joined NATO and Russia could not defend them?

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482174#Comment_119482174

That's an interesting and non literal interpretation of "sovereignty" - it's also a direct contradiction to what Putin himself said. Who knows better about what Putin wants & means: you or Putin?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482188#Comment_119482188

Did you even read the article you just posted?

The Kremlin is claiming that Ukraine is developing nuclear weapons. Like most of Russia’s other pretexts for invading Ukraine, this is dangerous nonsense.

So yes, I agree with the article, it is dangerous nonsense and I don't believe a single word you just said.

Meanwhile this is the view of independent security analyst Tom Clonan:

The Kremlin ordered a very ambitious assault on Donbas in the East and South and on the capital Kyiv and Kharkiv to the north. The war aim was clear – to decapitate President Zelenskyy’s administration and bring all of Ukraine under Russian control. This phase was a spectacular failure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482573#Comment_119482573

To be honest I don't care what you believe or not.I just said what I think about operation in Gostomel.

Unfortunately Putin not interested invade Kyiv as we can see.So there Will be 2 options.Or Ukrainians them self replace Zelenskii or will have live something similar to Somalia.But something telling me that many solders which been left by Zelenskii to die without support will soon come to Kyiv with many bad questions and Zelenskii will have run from Ukraine to some other part of the world were will have bad end.

Let's be realistic,end of Kyiv regime is only matter of time.

West already said they will fight until Last Ukrainian.Simple question What will happen when most Ukrainians will die ? The Answer will be West will stop fight against Russia or will find fresh meat to feed Russian bear again.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482174#Comment_119482174

You completely ignore every point put to you about the content of the Budapest agreement and NATO-Russia founding act which provide security assurances to Russia around nuclear weapons, strategic weapons and stationing of forces. Or that NATO countries ALREADY border Russia, which is why such agreements are in place.

So yes, sovereignty does give Ukraine that right as recognised in the NATO-Russia Founding Act which Russia signed. Nowhere does it say - except for those countries bordering Russia.

Every action Russia has taken in the last 15 years has served to drive neutral countries to join NATO, not the other way around. There is no defence in neutrality from Russian dominance, only in collective defence. And that is why NATO exists. It is not an offensive alliances, it did not attack Russia when it was at its weakest as USSR crumbled. It reduced military spending. It signed agreements with Russia to de-escalate tensions. Without NATO there is no sovereignty or independence for the former USSR republic or satellites. Look at Belarus.

So yes, my reasonable conclusion is that you have lost the argument because you jump onto whataboutery as your off ramp.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482581#Comment_119482581

You can think what you want but your opinion is directly contradicted by all independent military analysts and even the link you provided to support your claim thinks it is 'dangerous nonsense'. In reality, all the available evidence support the view that Putin tried to take Kyiv, and failed spectacularly, suffering significant losses in men and material.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482611#Comment_119482611

Forget about "analysts" which predicting war until Last Ukrainian.

We are talking about Reality which are based on many historical war events.

The gas in Europe already cost 2600 euros per 1000 kB MTRS.Let see how long Europe governments will take it ! And remember! Winter didn't even started yet! Very soon nobody will care about Any Ukraine! And West will stop and already stopping it support once they will see Ukraine is losing.

USA will leave Ukraine same as they did in Vietnam,Korea, Cambodia,Nikaragua,Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq.Its only matter of time when they will leave Ukraine.Ask those who was run from Afghanistan catching planes wheels! I will not surprised if we will see it in Kyiv soon !

To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.(Henry Kissinger)

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482604#Comment_119482604

I have not ignored it. I have read both in their entirety and nowhere is neutrality mentioned. You are ignoring this fact and keep pretending that it was implied by the recognition of sovereignty. Ukraine would have insisted that a clause be put in explicitly allowing them to renounce their agreed commitment to neutrality if it was a part of the negotiations. Which it wasn't.

Why as soon as the agreement was signed didn't Ukraine apply to join NATO if they were allowed to by Russia signing this agreement? Was it because neutrality was not a part of the negotiations for the agreement?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482511#Comment_119482511

Not much. How many of these 8 million civilians died in 8 years of conflict? A few hundred and many from land mines.

How many of these 8 million civilians has Russia killed through its indiscriminate attacks?

Ethnic Russians live in peace and security in the Baltic states as they would in Ukraine had Russia not fomented conflict.

So spare us the lies about Russia being a protector of any Ukranians of any ethicity or language or NATO being a facillitator of genocide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482696#Comment_119482696

No, ethic russians doesn't live in peace in Baltic States! They has similar discrimination as on Ukraine,the Russian language is Prohibited officialy ,russian school s are closing down,the only difference nobody killing them as on Ukraine.

https://tass.com/world/1492351

For example every russian in Latvia if he will choose Russian citizenship will be deported from Latvia by new legislation.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482696#Comment_119482696

A few hundred??? How can you post a complete lie and not expect to be called on it? Please tell me where you read that.

The United Nations estimate at least 3.400 civilians. Here is the Wikipedia statistics based on UN estimates. And as the war took place in the Donbass we can safely assume the the vast majority were ethnic Russians.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482733#Comment_119482733

Exactly, nobody is killing them. The Russian language is not prohibited. More lies. It is not recognised as an official language. If they want to be Russian they are free to do so - in Russia.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482775#Comment_119482775

Killed by Ukranian forces? How many.

Now show me the number of this 8 million killed by Russian forces in their indiscriminate attacks in just months of this phase.

bobowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482787#Comment_119482787

Yes killed by Ukrainian forces. Do you think the DPR & LPR killed their own women and children?

That's crazier than the Russians bombing their own occupied Nuclear Power plant.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482664#Comment_119482664

You are ignoring the points repeatedly put to you about the contents of the treaties Russia signed.

Apparently without such a clause Russia would never have allowed Ukraine to become independent....

So why didn't Russia in the Budapest agreement request such a clause that Ukraine be neutral permanently if it was such a red line to them?

Or during the negotiations of the friendship treaty of 1997?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty

It is not for Ukraine to beg for such permission from Russia as a recognised sovereign and independent state.

It is Ukraine's right as a sovereign country to be neutral - or not, or choose the means to ensure their own security i.e. in aliances of its own choosing as per the NATO-Russia Founding Act.

They made the mistake in thinking Russia would abide by the agreements they signed and would respect their neutrality, and then realised that they would only be able to follow the democratic will of their people and align with the West and EU if they also had NATO support to resist Russian attempts to prevent that future.

When Russia signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act, it also pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

NATO countries already border Russia. And Finland is about to join too. This is all permitted in the NATO-Russia Founding Act. What is governed in that agreement is what forces are stationed there to avoid escalation.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482808#Comment_119482808

Russians are killing the people you claim they are there to protect, in far higher numbers than during 7-8 years of previous conflict. You have no response when that point is put to you.

So yes, it seems reasonable to propose that their proxies would be reckless with the lives of civilians, with indiscriminate attacks, land mines etc etc

To claim Russia is there as a protector of these 8 millions is Russian propaganda made into tragedy and atrocity by Russian actions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482841#Comment_119482841

Look,I can't understand your logic .

I don't see any point for Putin killing people on area which he wants bring under control of Russia.

I also don't see any logic in destroying towns and bridges and after that spending huge money and resources to build them again !

I don't see any logic in destroying houses and leaving people on streets without roof above the head on areas were people was waiting for Putin for years!And Ukraine army was killing them for it.

I don't see any logic of Putin in shelling to Zaporozhye NPP when russian solders is already there ! And officials in UN asking permission bring nuclear energy experts there ! Or you want tell us that Russian soldiers shelling to Russian solders on Zaporozhye NPP ? You think there is all stupid and doesn't understand were shells flying from ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482872#Comment_119482872

It's not my logic. It is the actions of Putin's armies, so it is for you to figure out.

Why were Russian soldiers dug in around Chernobyl in the contamined zones?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-dust-chernobyls-red-forest-2022-03-28/

Ukraine has said Russian shells landed close to where radioactive material is stored, but no leaks were reported.

https://www.dw.com/en/russia-ukraine-updates-fresh-shelling-reported-at-ukrainian-nuclear-plant/a-62778568

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482898#Comment_119482898

Look,I think DW getting information from Zelenski office.That would explain enough.

I think word Logic not in use in Kyiv anymore.

If you look to the first posts on boards on very first days and now I think you will find that people started understand more what is really going on on Ukraine and why all this started.Time started work against Kyiv.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482968#Comment_119482968

Your opinion is directly contradicted by the posts on this thread which are in vast majority unfavourable to Russia.

The world has seen the true face of Russia and it is that of a war criminal.

Where is the 'logic' in fighting a war to prevent a bordering country from joining NATO that directly leads to a different bordering country... joining NATO.

Logic is in short supply in Moscow or maybe their invasion has nothing to do with that and it is a smokescreen for a colonial resource grab.

kernkraft500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119482872#Comment_119482872

Afghanistan...Chechnya... Georgia... Syria...

Same **** different country

https://youtu.be/hQ58Yv6kP44

Famous Putin speech in Munich 2007.From that day Russia started preparing for NATO and USA expanding which was bringing danger to door of Russia.

There been many questions why Russia didn't take Donbas together with Crimea in 2014 ? The answer was always the same Russia was weak and didn't have enough well equipped and trained army.The weapons were old and solders didn't have enough experience.

As far I remember every Summer they started organising massive army drills in Belarus.They was bringing huge amount of solders from far East end of Russia to the West border,from 15 to 30 000 within number of days.For example in February 10 just before war on Ukraine they brought to Belarus 30 000,the biggest number since Cold War.

The new weapons development was going very quick which been tested in Syria, Kalibr rockets which are used against Ukraine now had first tests there.Some experts are saying that trough war in Syria came around 100K Russian soldiers.

There been many other weapons created but if we look closely we will see that Russia was preparing to war which happened now and they definitely did it very well.

Preparing economically also.Putin very well integrated Russian resources into Europe body making sanctions against Russia very painful for Europe also.

So,this war it's only start of great Putin plan and Ukraine has no chance to win this war no matter how much weapons will be sent from NATO.Russia was preparing to this war 15 years! And everything what Putin doing is goes by plan which been preparing 15 years by best Russian experts and analysts.

kernkraft500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483119#Comment_119483119

15 years prep and this is the result?

best car crash ever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483119#Comment_119483119

They can't establish air or land superiority. If that is the result of 15 years of preparation and weapons development they must be really sorry to have shown their hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483309#Comment_119483309

Already did.Ukrainian aviation lost all its 214 planes plus 42 sent from NATO countries

Himars and M777 howitzers didn't do any help.

Russian army on field against biggest army in the Europe,trained by USA specialists and supported by whole NATO .But as we see from war in Georgia, Afghanistan,the USA instructors school never was strong.

The USA satellites from space sending information about targets directly into Himars rocket systems.Hundreds thousands tons of weapons coming to Ukraine from Norway,Germany,UK ,France , Australia and many other countries.

Also when Russian using only professional army ,the Ukraine declaring 4th mobilisation wave and sending to war mans over 60.

Also Ukrainian army using woman and children as live shields, school s and hospitals what Amnesty International already told about or shelling into Zaporozhye NPP .

If Ukrainian army would respect law of war and fight as solders ,not like terrorists,the Russian probably would ended as Mr Milley from Pentagon said In 3 days .

Putin didn't started war throwing bombs on Ukrainian army barracks at night time when solders were sleeping there.He started from front line were Ukrainian solders were prepared

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483685#Comment_119483685

More quite unreadable nonsense. What I could make sense of comes straight from the Russian lie factory in the Kremlin. For the many 100’s of percent of planes Ukraine is supposed to have lost, they weirdly are still flying. How do you fail to compute that a country can’t lose 3,4,500% of their jets yet still fly? Can’t you see the lie you are pushing? Or maybe you know it’s a lie but your commander has a gun to your back.

I certainly laugh when you say that HIMARS have made no difference. Arrange a spot in a comedy club. It would be a great place to tell the Russian lies you are pushing.

As for human shields, Amnesty has lost all credit. If Russia wasn’t attacking Ukraine and it’s citizens, the Ukrainian army wouldn’t have to defend them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483692#Comment_119483692

Why Ukrainian planes are painted by Poland air forces color then ? Because all Ukrainian planes are burned on the ground.