Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

beggars_bush

I see the russians want to be able to sell shipments of their own fertilizer before they'll agree to an extension of the grain export deal.

Bit rich of them considering how much ukranian wheat and sunflower oil they have been stealing and selling on covertly

JL555

We live in the best time humanity has ever lived in. We in the west enjoy an extremely high standard of living and long may it continue. We must always question the decisions and motives of our leaders, because we are in a privileged position to be able to do so without fear of being thrown in prison or worse.

Very few, if any, of the consequences of the actions we take in a very complex geopolitical world are black and white. While we can easily take a stance on a situation and chose to try everything we can to maintain our moral high ground and counterproductively spewing out the same old wish wash, while failing utterly at introspection so maybe, just maybe, we might make our world an even better place. But if we continue to keep our heads buried in the sand without even making a slight attempt at seeing the world around us, then we do not deserve the lives we live.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807316#Comment_119807316

So your point is in relation to the totally unjustifiable invasion of Ukr by Ru is what ?. And what attempts should you , I , the Irish nation, etc ,re “—————making a slight attempt——————“

JL555

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807460#Comment_119807460

Did I mention Russia's invasion of Ukraine in my post? I just checked and cannot see it anywhere. So it seems you've completely missed my point.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807477#Comment_119807477

Did you mean to start a new thread or something because as long as you post in an Ukraine thread it is logical to assume that your post is to do with Russia’s attempt at genocide.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807477#Comment_119807477

Look at the thread heading. It says Ukraine to me. So what point are you trying to make anyway? And give some examples of the type of attempts we could make. Maybe you posted in the wrong thread. And if you are saying that you did post in the right thread then it is beholden of you to link what you are saying to the Russian invasion of the Ukraine.

JL555

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807629#Comment_119807629

It should be very clear what point I'm making. I do not know how to simplify it further.

My post can absolutely be applicable to the war in Ukraine, or any other global issue.

If we want to specifically link this to Ukraine and regarding attempts we could make at seeing the world around us, let's first move past what we are being told by our leaders without us questioning it, same for our media. etc, They, generally have a one sided view of the world, I'm not saying dismiss them. Sure, there's tonnes of completely unreliable sources out there, mostly easy to spot, so best ignored if possible, but we all get that wrong from time to time. There's plenty of credible commentators (and not Russian sponsored). Not everybody who speaks critically of a crisis situation are crazies, or Russian propaganda mules etc. etc. And anyone with an ounce of sense knows this.

Also, as we all agree on one thing, this war in Ukraine is despicable. But after that I cannot see much consensus that it must stop now. Do people actually realise that there are nuclear heavyweights involved in this and Ukraine a sitting duck? Where is people's concern for this? All I hear are hysterical rants about how crazy Putin is and calling out everybody else who chose not to be lemmings, as Russian sympathizers. This is absolutely nuts. Sure, have those views, but show some balance, ask our leaders what actions are they taking to bring this to an end? Are they all waiting to see how this plays out? Waiting for another 5, 6 months, maybe more, when 10s of thousands more have died, what will we do then? Keep calling out Putin as a war mongerer and slapping on some other sanction? Is that good enough? To me it's unacceptable. We should be taking action to save lives NOW.

I have written to my local TDs on several occasions this year, several senior TDs all live within 20 miles of me, none of them have ever come back to me describing what steps they are taking to try bring an end to this dangerous conflict. None of them. It really angers me that there have not been any serious attempts by our (western) leaders to de-escalate this, we have it within our power to do so. The best thing we could come up are with a ton of Sanctions and to keep pumping arms into a nuclear hot zone. So yes, maybe my posts annoy people. As I said above, we are privileged to live in a society where we can make our voices heard and question and challenge our leaders. When we all blindly agree with each other in a crisis situation like this then we are walking into to trouble and quite frankly asking for it and maybe we do deserve what we get.

I stand by my OP, take it as you will, it can attributed to this or any other crisis situation. We never learn.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807049#Comment_119807049

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807049#Comment_119807049

Amandstu, you are going round in dwindling ever decreasing circles;

"I am not saying how long the US should have stayed, just that it should have left on terms that were acceptable to the Afghan people .

And just what exactly were the agreements signed in Doha, between the Afghan Government? Unacceptable terms?

I am not talking about veiled threats to politicians but the whole country should have had a stake in whether or not the US left or not.

What veiled threats? And see previous paragraph re Doha agreement.

If the country as a whole wanted the US to leave and indicated this in democratic elections, then the US would have been morally free to do what it obviously wanted and left.On the other hand if there was a genuine democratically expressed wish for the US to stay then the US had the choice of saying "tough **** we have had enough" or "ok we will be your friends and allies"

The above two paragraphs answered together.: Trump, decided that he wanted to end the war in Afghanistan, and bring the military home. Brussels Sprouts gave a very good explanation why Trump held this view, a few posts back. And this was communicated to the Afghan Government, and the process of making a peace deal with the Taliban started. The US guaranteed the Afghan security while these talks were in progress. The fact that the Taliban broke nearly every single accord that they signed, is not the fault of the US, or the Karsai Government. And to this day its why Afghan money is locked in US banks because the Taliban is not recognized as the legal duly constituted Goverment of Afghanistan.

As things actually transpired it is obvious there was a lack of communication between those two countries and both have come off worse (the Taliban are the maggot that has crept into the rotten apple of this mutual misunderstanding and disregard)

Again, see the paragraph about the Doha agreement.

By the way I am not impressed by the amount of money that was poured into infrastructure (probably a drop in the ocean of US's wealth and I can't say how essential it was to Afghanistan,'s well being)

To give the Afghan any kind of chance for economic survival, they had to try and modernize it,,,,main primary roads were just a guide,,,you drove on the desert beside them, but not on them. The Airports, buildings were falling down, broken windows etc. And as for radars and electronics??? So yes, the money spent on these projects (and many more) was well spent. They were the main reason that the Afghan economy was developing.

The compact was to prevent another 9/11 and to do the decent thing by the Afghan population in the aftermath whatever that entailed.

And thats exactly what they did Amandstu.....prevented anither 9/11, and did the right thing by the Afghan people, and did more than the right thing. Much more than any one else in Afghan history ever did.

Now this is the Ukraine thread, so I'm done posting about Afghanistan on it

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807832#Comment_119807832

I honestly stopped reading when you said to show some balance. Why should there be balance then one party is invading another? That same party is happy to promote those who rape and murder children, women and men. Ukraine the defenders have don’t nothing that can counter balance that because Ukraine is not the aggressor, nor are they evil. So, anyone who wants balance is basically saying that they want people to respect Russia and the hideous things Russia is doing. They are supporting Russia but afraid to say it because it shows them for what they are…supporters of paedophile genocidal murderers.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807316#Comment_119807316

This is just notions. Frankly, and ironically, rather arrogant in a Western sense to make assertions of presumed complexity from your own noted place of privilege. Your own words are easy to type out when you're not experiencing blackout cos a foreign army invaded your lands and is sending drones at your cities. The mobile network collapsing cos everyone has pivoted to using their phones for basic utilities while the power's out.

Instead of high minded vagueries, how would you solve the problem of a bully autocrat directing armies in your country, intent on destroying civilian infrastructure, attacking cities indiscriminately while trying to arrest a failed invasion? Seeking Both Sides logic for the sake of your own personal intellectual rigour doesn't change the realities on the ground. This is an eminently simple scenario, they do exist.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807832#Comment_119807832

Providing Ukraine the means and resources to more effectively defend itself against a genocidal invader is saving lives.

Field east

You may not realise it but this is a classical deflection post and you also may not know what seasoned boardie contributors call such a poster!

JL555

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808106#Comment_119808106

I'm not too concerned if I'm not with the 'in crowd'. My views are my views, as ridiculous as they may seem. I hope I have not responded to any comments with personal insults and immature wafflings. But if the other option is to jump on the bandwagon of a black and white world then I'm not interested.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807068#Comment_119807068

The shortage of hard cash is really starting to hurt them now, I'd say. I wonder how they're managing to pay all their bills worldwide now, or even if they are managing to pay all of them?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808195#Comment_119808195

The world isn't black and white and nobody here's that naive, but arguing that all shades are equivalent to each other, in the face of a patently simple scenario, is absurd. It's reaching for depth where none may exist. Charcoal is not the same as ... I dunno, Oxford White (thanks Fleetwood!)

Putin will not leave Ukraine without taking its territory, and resources to boot. So what's the answer? You either give the bully what he wants, or fight him. Negotiations are off the table while one side considers the other theirs for the taking (Putin has literally written a treatise to this effect). You don't start with the stick, but when the other guy's already in your country sending drones to freeze your population during winter - then what?

For those of you who keep saying Ukraine isn't the aggressor. What about when they attacked people in the Donbas for the sole reason that those people wanted their independence or to join Russia or do the opinions of those people not matter to you?

And many of you are taking a very simplified view, leaders don't just wake up one morning and decide to invade another country to suggest otherwise is completely idiotic to paraphrase a once popular YouTuber CCP Gray. "A king does not rule without his court"

But go on try and deny what I have said above as you sit in your homes or offices, drinking coffee or tea grown by exploited farmers in your clothes made by either children or impoverished workers in some third world country and pretend that you are so morally virtuous meanwhile, in Ukraine hundreds continue to die every day the war continues and there is no attempt at any form of negotiation or compromise.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809030#Comment_119809030

in Ukraine hundreds continue to die every day the war continues and there is no attempt at any form of negotiation or compromise

Even ignoring the rest of the nonsense in your post, the war continues because Ukraine, the invaded nation, _does not want to negotiate or compromise_ . The war does not continue because of the west, it continues because Russia insists on continuing their genocidal invasion and because Ukraine insists on bravely resisting.

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808195#Comment_119808195

At least you are aware that your views are ridiculous. I suspect you are just being edgy and playing devil's advocate.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809030#Comment_119809030

What about what about. I asked before. Do you believe those 4 referenda that took place are legitimate?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809051#Comment_119809051

The reason you ignored the rest of my post is because you had no comeback to what I said.

I hope one day soon. Ukraine and their western backers as well as Russia will come to their senses. And sit down at the negotiating table and try and hammer out some form of deal that stops the violence. Even if that means, Ukraine has to lose some territory where the majority of the people living in that territory don't want to be part of Ukraine.

I suspect that some people don't want the war to end simply because it's providing them with entertainment and a distraction from their boring existence. Governments are also finding it handy as a distraction from the looming issue of climate induced disaster that's coming down the line.

Gatling

@[Deleted User] For those of you who keep saying Ukraine isn't the aggressor. What about when they attacked people in the Donbas...

Actually they started shooting at Ukrainians with a little help from the Russian military first and paramilitary who took part in killing civilian protestors Kiev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809122#Comment_119809122

A typical response from one of the flag wavers, I respect the votes of the people of those 4 regions however, I agree with Elon musk that the vote should have been supervised by an independent body such as the UN.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809141#Comment_119809141

Proof please the people or the 4 invaded regions don't want to be part of Ukraine. The referenda have not been considered as valid, but by all means provide some proof. Ethnicity does not equal nationality. Austrians might like a word to that point.

Some Western hubris to just casually spitball Ukraine give over more of its territory to appease a bully, while chastising the rest of us for taking a more direct view of this war. Maybe look in the mirror before taking the high road. And Appeasement! such a historically astute and successful tactic too. Putin literally claims Ukraine as part of mother Russia, funny how that is so handily ignored.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809149#Comment_119809149

So you believe the vote was legitimate and above board. Ok, thanks for clarifying despite the reductive talk. Flag wavers, lord. Good to know your standards of democracy rank that low you just accept a result generally considered as illegitimate, held by a country whose own elections barely pass muster.

And I'd be careful about criticising others. Given your rhetoric is the kind of performative contrarianism that likes to affect neutrality because it allows you to feel smug over others, us "flag wavers". Your bringing up of whatabout nonsense over farmers revealed that to all.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809149#Comment_119809149

Russia could have pushed for referenda in Donetsk and Luhansk to be monitored by an agreed international body prior to the invasion. The problem with that was that it wouldn't give them control of the coast and another connection to Crimea so it wasn't enough for them. They invaded to take additional territory over which they had no legitimate claims and not enough ethnic Russians to carry the vote. Instead they thought they could crush Ukraine and take what they wanted. There was no peaceful means for Russia to get what they wanted so they went with outright destruction and genocide. The results of the referenda which have taken place in no way represent the votes of the people of those 4 regions and should be completely disregarded.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809181#Comment_119809181

Another typical b******* response from you. You continue to cry what about, what about endlessly and refuse to acknowledge that Ukraine and their western backers could have any fault in the ongoing situation.

You want proof that the people in those regions wanted independence. Ok, explain to me why Ukraine began shelling them back in 2014 and didn't President Zelenskyy promise to give residents of the Donbas an independence referendum? Or is that fake news as well.

But you know what let's test The legitimacy of the referendums surely you wouldn't be opposed to a halt to the hostilities and a UN supervised independence referendum in the four regions that were annexed into Russia?

After all, we in the West are supposed to be the most democratic so let's use the power of democracy and let the people decide.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809149#Comment_119809149

You respect the vote, in a scenario where tens of thousands of people have been killed and deported by Russia, held under military observation, at gunpoint.

You respect that?

You're digging your own morally and intellectually bankrupt grave for your position.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809149#Comment_119809149

A vote carried out with armed soldiers knocking on the door and anyone not voting "correct" being tortured; yea sorry but what ever low amount of credability you had left is gone. You are at best an contrarian who think you're intellectual but in reality you're a useful fool who's bought in to Russian propaganda trying to claim balance. I've seen the likes of you before in China etc. as well; don't bother responding because honestly you're a waste of space and nothing said will change your mind now.

What I do hope you do however, and I know you wont, is to travel to those regions in a couple of years when they are freed and actually speak with the people living there what they went through. Unlike you I have actually been there in person and spoken with them, I was there the year after Crimea was taken over, I did speak with a lot of the local population as I was working with them in a project on site for over six months. I also know there view very clearly because we had to bring in a Russian speaking person from a Western European country due to lack of Ukrainian speaking for the system we were implementing and how that was received. I have as well seen the pictures of the same factory I was at in person, the road with the burned out Russian military vehicles etc. Unlike you, I've been there, I know people who lived there and on their behalf I say all of the above. Go there afterwards, speak with the people and educate yourself properly instead; because the drivel you've swallowed is about as close to the truth as what China is putting out in state media. But I know and you know that you'll never do that which is a pity.

Gatling

@[Deleted User] explain to me why Ukraine began shelling them back in 2014.

Because Russian forces started killing Ukrainians

bear1

Black sea fleet hit again, you'd have to question what sort of defences the Russians actually have at this stage.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809141#Comment_119809141

No it isn't. The conflict in the Donbas is a little complicated, but the idea that Ukraine just randomly started attacking them because they "wanted to be part of Russia" is asinine. Russia, in essence, invaded the country in 2014 and pretending otherwise just betrays your worldview.