Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751707#Comment_120751707

This is what I said

Democratically elected leader ousted in a coup and part of the country refuses to recognise the new government resulting in 14,000 deaths. The burning alive of the Odessa protesters from that period seems to be a particular bone of contention in Russia.

At no point did I say the US and Russia were not interfering in Ukraine.

I don't know why you keep referring to Budapest.

Russia interfered in Ukraine and violated Budapest when Ukraine wanted to sign treaty with EU

I'm not disputing your claim. The consensus seems that Russia did not want Ukraine getting closer to the EU. That's neither here nor there. The duty of a leader is to guide his country as best as possible despite the actions of foreign agents.

Zelensky has guided his country onto the rocks and should be looking for diplomatic solutions IMHO.

I think I made my point. You can agree or disagree but your insulting language is offensive and does nothing for your point of view.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751851#Comment_120751851

And does he have any words of condemnation for this Russian imperialism?

And yet so called anti imperialists here cite him as an authority.

Proof positive they are not motivated by anti imperialism. They are pro Imperialism if it is Russian.

CalamariFritti

Seemingly everyone on here is suddenly an expert. With absolute knowledge of what are Russian lies (which is basically everything they dont like) and every development in Ukraine since godknowswhen. Everyone is suddenly after becoming a geostrategy analyst who closely observed eastern European political undercurrents since forever.

In fact it's like fkn covid all over again. Some of the same characters too who had absolute knowledge about everything then too; what was a lie and what was 'misinformation' and which study could be believed and which not etc bladeebla.

It would be funny if it wasnt so sad.

Hint: There is a more than fair chance that a lot of the 'facts' you believe in aren't really facts and a lot of the 'lies' have a fair bit of truth in them. You're making the same mistake again trying to divide into truth and lies and good and bad and you're actually making yourself a prime sucker for 'misinformation' that way. The world is not black and white and can't be divided into good guys and bad guys. The world is mostly a cynical sh1t game with a whole lot of murky and ugly grey guys.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751646#Comment_120751646

Why didn’t Ukrainian women go to the frontline to get blown apart???

What are you even on about?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751856#Comment_120751856

Ah if you dont know why Budapest gets mentioned you really need to stop and ask yourself where you are getting your information from about Ukraine-Russia and what else they are lying to you about.

The Budapest agreement Russia recognised Ukraines sovereignty, independence and territory. Russia signed an international treaty that it would not use ecomonic sanctions or pressure on Ukraine. Ukraine gave up its strategic weapons in return.

Go onto your so called anti imperialist websites and see if they list all Russias violations of that treaty.

I will redirect this question to you again as you keep ignoring it for obvious reasons:

Do you accept that Ukraine has the right as a sovereign state to join the EU without Russian interference? As is provided for in the Budapest and Helsinki accords Russia signed either in its own right or as USSR?

Yes or no?

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751851#Comment_120751851

I find it hard to respond. Your grasp of the facts seems poor.

Transparency international rate Ukraine as more corrupt than Belarus. In fact there is only one European country they rate more corrupt than Ukraine, Russia.

Ukraine apparently ticks 2 of 7 boxes for NATO membership.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/us/politics/nato-ukraine.html

If Ukraine met the necessary corruption and democracy milestones then it might be worth saying join NATO but they are so far off being allowed join NATO which Mearsheimer understands and is obvious. I don't understand why I am compelled to state it to someone who claims that Mearsheimer is a stooge. It's just bizarre.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751889#Comment_120751889

They were crying when Claire Daly was suggesting diplomacy not more weapons. The Ukranian army is being annihilated, all those people being blown apart.

If it were my sons.... That's what I'm on about.

I'm signing off. Peace out gents.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751856#Comment_120751856

Zelensky is a comedian who became a World Leader.

Putin is a World Leader who became the butt of jokes.

Whether you agree with how this happened or not, it is a reality in the wider World outside the War Bubble.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751913#Comment_120751913

Does he have any words of condemnation for this Russian imperialism?

Can you post them here?

Otherwise stop citing him as an expert or moral authority.

He is no such thing.

He is pushing an agenda.

And agenda that calls for Ukraine to submit to Russian imperialism.

Strange a so called anti imperialist doesnt see that.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751901#Comment_120751901

1993. The US also agreed NATO would not expand East. It's clear Russia is not honouring the Budapest agreement.

Ukraine can fight to regain that right and lose hundreds of thousands of people and see it's country destroyed. That would be stupid because Russia would annihilate it. Yet here we are.

Sorry, really finished now. Goodnight.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751928#Comment_120751928

They know what diplomacy means. Budapest all over again. Russia free to do whatever it wants.

People like you and Claire Daly will leave them to the brutality of Russian imperialism. To more Buchas. That is what Russian peace looks like. That is why they cry. And you will look the other way.

That is why they fight and ask for the weapons.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751956#Comment_120751956

Your claims have no credibility. The US agreed no such thing. They agreed not to station NATO forces in East Germany.

NATO expansion was agreed with Russia in the 1996 NATO Russia Founding Act. Have you heard of it or is that another treaty your sources on the war conceal also?

There is no moral basis to your argument. It is simply submit to imperialism or die. It is realpolitik. And not even sound realpolitik.

Their country and its future will be destroyed if they come back under Russian tyranny.

You call yourself an anti imperialist yet have no words of condemnation for it in its Russian guise. You show no respect for Ukraine as it fights against that imperialism. No attempt to understand why they choose to fight. No respect for their experience with Russia and its contempt for diplomacy and previous treaties. They fight now because they believe any deal now with Russia would just mean a truce for Russia to rearm. That is whst Russia did in Chechnya.

You cant even answer a simple question about Ukraine joining the EU. So here we go again.

Do you accept that Ukraine has the right as a sovereign state to join the EU without Russian interference? As is provided for in the Budapest and Helsinki accords Russia signed either in its own right or as USSR?

Yes or no?

Do you condemn Russia for violating Budapest to pressure Ukraine into not signing EU association treaty?

Yes or no?

Do you without reservation condemn Russias invasion of Ukraine and its war crimes such as Bucha and attacking of civilians areas with heavy weapons?

Yes or no?

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751956#Comment_120751956

1993?

You're shaming yourself now.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752060#Comment_120752060

Didnt seem to know what the Budapest agreement was.

Talks about NATO expansion but hasnt heard of the NATO Russia Founding Act.

I guess Mearsheimer left them out. So either Mearsheimer doesnt know about them ergo not an expert ... or knew about them and lies by omission and is just a con man.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751655#Comment_120751655

You go through this spiel of claiming not to know anything, yet you strangely recycle and repeat the same propaganda points.

For example, you brought up Mearsheimer in May, I responded to it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561599#Comment_120561599

Now you are back to Mearsheimer again. Likewise you are rehashing this "coup" thing again. It's a tiresome act.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751913#Comment_120751913

Technically I said he was a stooge or an idiot. I actually think the latter is more likely.

I am aware of Ukraine's ranking on the corruption index. The fact they were moving up the index is indeed part of the reason they were invaded. Nor do I have any expectation that there was a realistic chance they could have already been in NATO, nor did I say such a thing. However, their desire to move in that direction was very obviously due to the looming threat of their neighbour. Mearsheimer's contention would be that Ukraine "belong" to Russia's sphere of influence and as such any overtures to the West are aggressions against Russia that it could not ignore. Its core premise is incredibly offensive, but beyond that it is also historically illiterate and seems to ignore the Baltic States completely. Aiming for cooperation with the West makes sense both economically and strategically, the only "mistake" Ukraine made was not managing to complete this transition before Putin got deranged enough for a full scale invasion. Unfortunately coming back from decades of soviet rule is a difficult and long process.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751956#Comment_120751956

Not true unfortunately .

And 14,000 Ukrainians would be still Alive if the Russian army didn't invade and occupy parts of Ukraine in 2014

odyssey06

But but but NATO...

Head of Russian Wagner mercenaries owns up to the Putin's lies about Ukraine, and the Russian lies spread on this thread about who was killing who in Ukraine pre 2022.

This is that Russian imperialism looks like.

Twitter source summaries is: The Donbas was plundered by Russians since 2014 and the 2022 war began for reasons very different from those advertised to the public.

"Ukraine has not bombed Donetsk for 8 years, only Russian positions. The Armed Forces of Ukraine were not going to attack Russia with NATO soldiers, the Russian Ministry of Defense is deceiving the public and the president."

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672157866222923781

Brussels Sprout

Demanding "peer reviewed evidence" (whatever the hell that means in the context of geopolitics but that's an entirely different argument) after busting out John Mearsheimer and The Jacobin as your own sources is just.....wow.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753884#Comment_120753884

In this context it is just a string of random words heard elsewhere repeated here verbatim without any understanding in an attempt to sound impressive in a post.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753884#Comment_120753884

Standard approach of this type of dishonest debater: demand from others a level far higher than their own "sources" - while ignoring the hypocrisy of indulging in confirmation bias to prove some fuzzy sense of "Both Sides" equivalence. Nobody plays that game, refuses to meet those "standards", so enables them to play intellectually superiority.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752002#Comment_120752002

I looked briefly but not in detail at the 1996 NATO act so thanks for pointing me to it.

Here is a discussion on the commitment not to move East.

https://www.france24.com/en/russia/20220130-did-nato-betray-russia-by-expanding-to-the-east

The moral basis in my argument is stop sending people to kill each other as Sabine Higgins said. Use diplomacy. The two most corrupt countries in Europe are fighting. Use diplomacy.

I joined this conversation to respond to the peace plan put forward by Donegal boy

I may be pessimistic as I cannot see the Ukrainians pushing the Russians out with this counter-offensive, so this is my humble peace plan.

I've nothing more to contribute except to say that unless NATO send troops it appears to me to be pointless sending more troops to fight the better equipped and larger Russian army.

On reflection, the best I think Ukraine could achieve is maintaining defensive positions which might result in retention of some of the four oblasts if combined with diplomacy. I do not see Russia ceding territory and likely they will take all four oblasts because as I've alluded to there is conflict in Ukraine between ethnic Russian's and ethnic Ukrainian's. That conflict would mean that a Russian retreat is essentially abandoning russian allies in Ukraine which would not be a good look for Russia. Maybe with some guarantees something could be achieved.

As I said before, it's criminal and immoral to shove non political and poor Ukranian and Russian people's into the slaughter pit. Putin, Biden and Zelensky should be imprisoned for their roles in this abomination.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120754552#Comment_120754552

Use diplomacy! Ukraine already tried that. Budapest. Russia violated it. When this is pointed out to you disappear and come back posts later repeating the same line, use diplomacy! Absolute nonsense.

What you advocate isn't diplomacy it is surrender. Don't pretend otherwise.

You draw false moral equivalence between Russia and Ukraine. You do not condemn Russian war crimes, you run away from the question.

It is a position of intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

The fact that you ran away from simple questions means I can now draw these conclusions.

You do not see Russia's invasion or war crimes as worthy of condemnation as acts in their own right. You were asked to condemn Russia's interference in Ukraine joining the EU. You refused. Therefore it is reasonable to draw the conclusion: you see nothing wrong with Russia interfering in a sovereign country in this manner and preventing it from joining the EU. Even though Ukraine has a diplomatic treaty with Russia promising to respect its independence and sovereignty.

But still you shout "Use diplomacy!"

They did. Look where it got them.

Of course you won't answer. You can't answer. You are not here to debate.

You refuses to specifically condemn Russia's illegal invasion or its war crimes. You draw a false and reprehensible moral equivalence between Ukraine fighting off an illegal invasion and those same invaders. On the subject of Russia war crimes you are silent.

Therefore your actions here give succour to Russia and its war crimes.

The head of the Wagner group says Russia was in Ukraine in 2014 to plunder its resources.

Your actions here are a defence of Russian imperialism.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120754552#Comment_120754552

The usual stuff to unpick here (again)

The moral basis in my argument is stop sending people to kill each other as Sabine Higgins said. Use diplomacy. The two most corrupt countries in Europe are fighting. Use diplomacy.

For the 5th or 6th time, these are not two countries having a "dispute". One is illegally invading the other in order to absorb it into it's empire. The defender has a choice of either living under that brutal occupation or defending itself. They've overwhelmingly chosen to defend themselves. That's their choice. When and how they go to the table is also their choice.

Once Russia absorbs Ukrainian territory, the Ukrainian people there are subjected to arbitrary murders, rapes, tortures. They are subjected to injustices, arbitrary imprisonments. Their culture and identity is erased. Their language is erased (their children are forced only to speak Russian). Their children are stolen and trafficked. They lose all their democratic freedoms and rights. They become subject to an authoritarian puppet from Moscow ruling over them. They lose all of this forever because it becomes absorbed into Russia and defended with nuclear weapons.

Which is why they have chosen to defend themselves.

They are fighting for their families, their land, their language and culture, their democracy, their freedom, everything is on the line - and they are actually managing not only to hold the Russians, but to push them back.

People like you and Sabine Higgins aren't campaigning for peace, you are campaigning for the occupation of the Ukrainian people, rewarding Putin for his invasion. He didn't stop when rewarded with Crimea, he didn't stop when he took Eastern Ukraine, he's certainly not going to stop when rewarded with land, every Ukrainian knows that. Likewise people like you and Sabine Higgins can't hide your fringe world views that the West are to blame, which is directly in line with Putin's views. Putin has never stopped bombing Ukraine 24/7 since Feb 24th 2022, yet here you are pretending he wants "peace". Ukraine has overwhelmingly decided to defend itself, yet here you are pretending to speak on their behalf.

Here are some photos from occupied Ukraine, the "peace" awaiting them.

Gatling

@grumpyperson "The Kremlin claims "

The whole sum of your argument is the Kremlin claimed,well during the 1996 Nato conference which Vladimir Putin was in attendance,it was already discussed the Georgia and Ukraine were potential candidates for future membership,

At no stage was Russia promised Nato wouldn't expand ,it was mentioned by the Russians back when the fall of the Soviet union started but it was never discussed and agreed on with the Americans or anyone else at the time in any serious conversations, it wasn't until the 2000s that Gorbachev claimed he was promised not 1 inch east ,but couldn't tell anyone who and where this was promised or couldn't provide any evidence of any signed agreement with anyone.

Bs from the Kremlin

Why post pictures of bucha that's just evidence of Russian war crimes in Ukraine

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752197#Comment_120752197

Like a gramophone record with a crack in it....

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753733#Comment_120753733

Increasingly I've absolutely no idea what to make of Prigozhin. Arguably his most explosive comments yet, effectively confirming from a Russian perspective what we already knew: that Russia's entire pretext for invasion was bullshít.

But equally, why is Prigozhin still alive? Some have suggested he has been steadily frozen out from the halls of power in Moscow since Bakhmut started to go a bit awry - but even if true, how is Prigozhin still allowed to rant away without a sudden & lethal case of balcony fever?

I watched a TLDR video that examined Prigozhin, especially regards a potential political career and a challenge to Putin - but one important factor that was highlighted was that the man is relatively unknown in Russia, channeling only about 2% support (obviously the caveat applies about Russia's polling "methods").

pixelburp

As if the situation wasn't already a bit surreal with Prigozhin, he's now claiming Russia fired rockets onto his troop's positions, killing many, and now declaring Wagner is gonna do ... something?

Truly a situation that has become, to put it mildly, very fluid. I don't follow any of the myriad of Telegram channels, or Twitter accounts that mirror the chatter but I'm quite baffled as to where this is all going - and what the Ukrainian perspective might be.

Edit: apparently the FSB have opened a criminal case. Things have got spicy.

“Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped,” he said.

“Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished. I’m asking: no one resist,” Prigozhin said.

“Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads,” he added.

“I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside. After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.”

...

“This is not a military coup, this is a march of justice. Our actions do not hinder the armed forces in any way,” the Wagner chief said. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/wagner-chief-accuses-russias-military-of-attack-and-says-evil-leadership-must-be-stopped

Nody

Rumours of Russian military forces fired artillery and attack helicopters at the Wagner forces in Ukraine at night as the trigger (i.e. the Russian forces could not really see what their target was / object). In addition that militay forces are now being moved towards Wagners compounds in Russia (note this is only second hand confirmations from not very reliable sources); this could turn into a very nasty fight very quickly but I'd put money on Russian army at the end of the day simply due to numbers and fear of not following orders (and it gives the Russian MoD an excuse to incorporate any survivors into their own version and send them back out to die).

Gatling

This got very interesting very quickly,

Moscow going to lockdown