Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823608#Comment_120823608

and as it should be we are not neutral in regards to the Russian dictatorships invasion of Ukraine. We are unequivocal in our support of Ukraine. Albeit we are neutral from a military alliance standpoint.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823696#Comment_120823696

Almost unequivocal.

Clare Daly, Mick Wallace and that clown show are unfortunately Irish.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822924#Comment_120822924

What lies did they put in their report? If you are going to accuse them of lying, at least have the decency to outline your accusations against them last time I checked they were a well-respected charitable organisation.

You seem to be reading right out of the warmonger's handbook. What is wrong with trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement or would you most happy if this were to devolve into a nuclear exchange?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823851#Comment_120823851

How did negotiating a peaceful settlement work out in Chechnya?

How well did it work out for Ukraine when they tried it with Russia at Budapest?

What about Moldova and the agreed withdrawal of Russian forces which never happened?

You have given exactly zero reason to suppose Russia is interested is a genuine peaceful settlement. A lasting peace that is not merely a truce and leaves Ukraine in peace ie secure from Russian aggression and tyranny.

In my book, you are war mongerer if you advocate rewarding war mongerers such as Putin. That is certainly inimical to peace.

So do you advocate that Russia withdraws its forces from the territiry of Ukraine ie as it recognised in the peaceful settlement of Budapest agreement?

And cease all attacks and economic blockade on Ukraine?

This is all as per the peacefully negotiated Budapest agreement?

You seem so keen on diplomatic solutions yet in a display of blatant hypocrisy have no words of condemnation for Russias multiple violations of them?

It is Russias repeated violations of negotiated treaties which beings us to this point.... culminating in the illegal invasion of Ukraine and the countless war crimes it commits as a deliberate policy.

Unless you simply advocate surrender to any and all Russian demands because they threaten nuclear attacks?

Is that what would make you most happy?

Dohnjoe

"Just tell Zelensky to give Putin Crimea Donbas what he wants and there'll be peace" - The peace plan.

saabsaab

I'm sure talks could start with Russia. As long as they pulled out of Ukraine first.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823851#Comment_120823851

So tell us your big peace plan ...

Does it involve the full withdrawal of all Russian Military forces from inside the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine pre2014 ?

Does it involve the Russian military handing over all military officers and soldiers who committed horrorifc war crimes against ukraine?

Does it involve repatriations being paid to Ukraine for the damage done to their country by Russias invasion and Targeting of civilian infrastructure?

Does it involve Russia returning all Ukrainian children and their families forcibly detained and deported to Russia for forced adoptions and re-education ?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823851#Comment_120823851

"warmonger"

It's such a giveaway. Also see:

• "Russophobia"
• "Western"
• "Globalist"

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823632#Comment_120823632

And within the very noble rhetoric pleading for "mediation" I'll ask again: how do you square the circle of a high minded notion for compromise, when one side has been quite public about Ukraine's independence being a mistake to be rectified? Putin has said this re. the state of Ukraine, it cannot be ignored if one wants to truly talk peace.

It's all well and good promoting "an opportunity for dialogue, mediation, and finding common ground...." but by all means solve that conundrum instead of wrapping people's knuckles - or calling them warmongers - for siding with Ukraine's right to defend itself during am existential crisis. And all moments have shown this was existential, through the words of Putin and the deeds of his army. Or the words of Prigozhin only recently. Conquest was the intent - mediate for that.

This isn't some complex, moral grey area of ethnicities and nationalities warring with each other within a single state, ala Northern Ireland or Yugoslavia.There is one clear aggressor whose intent is towards a reformation of the USSR, and regret Ukraine exists at all as a sovereign. Don't dodge the question with affectations towards abstracted ideals of neutrality, to play the intellectual - deal with the pragmatism.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824014#Comment_120824014

I mean if you reward someone for invading it isn't like they will invade again to take advantage.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821897#Comment_120821897

You didn't answer my question. What is the difference between a sovereign and independent country and a country?

Do example, people thought Tibet was a country but now it is recognised as a part of China.

Some people might think Kosovo is a country but it's not recognised as such by the UN.

As far as I am aware Ukraine is recognised as a de jure country unless you have other information.

I don't know the point of this claptrap, countries have been invading and stealing territory from other countries for a long time. Currently it looks like Ukraine will continue to be a smaller country with the loss of Crimea but who knows.

For example, the US government sponsored a paper by Rand on how to destabilise Russia via a war in Ukraine. If Russia broke into smaller countries would you say that Russia is a sovereign country and the smaller countries not be allowed to break away?

You make so many erroneous and definitive points that I simply do not have time to answer them all.

I suggest reading a book to help understand European history

e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Europe-1450-1789-Cambridge-History/dp/1107643570/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=QVZQ2ADUMLI7&keywords=Modern+Europe%2C+1789-Present&qid=1688910938&sprefix=modern+europe+1789-present%2Caps%2C400&sr=8-5

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120822329#Comment_120822329

I wrote a long response but the page refreshed 😳

Quickly, Ukraine should have right to join EU if the member states agree. It would be a long path as it would not fulfill the requirements due to the massive corruption in Ukraine prior to the war.

I am 100% against troops killing innocent civilians and especially children. The images from Bucha are horrendous. The UN has called for an independent investigation and hopefully the issue will be resolved and justice served.

https://unric.org/en/un-calls-for-an-independent-investigation-on-bucha/

Russia was also asking for an independent investigation.

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/russia-asks-un-to-hand-full-list-of-bucha-victims-presses-for-intl-investigation-articleshow.html

I hope there is an independent investigation very soon and the results published and justice served.

As you might not have noticed I'm against the war. Both countries have been accused of war crimes with Putin wanted for genocide due to relocating children. As I have said, ceasefire. It's not whataboutery to use history to try to understand what is happening now.

As has been said, "Whataboutism" is the distress-cry of an exposed hypocrite

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825727#Comment_120825727

Russian claims aren't credible

'Russian President Vladimir Putin and Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko called the mass killing of civilians in Bucha "fake".[176]

In an article for The Conversation, journalist Tomas Sniegon described Russia's approach to Bucha as similar as the Soviet Union's denial of the Katyn massacre, where Soviet troops covered up the execution of thousands of Poles, insisting the massacre had been done by the German army.[177] Comparisons between the two events were also made by The Asahi Shimbun[178] and Prime Minister of Slovenia Janez Janša.[179]

The Russian permanent representative to the United Nations Vassily Nebenzya claimed that the Western media "suppressed all objective facts and evidence and disseminated blatant fakes instead" and implied that the Guardian report proved that the Ukrainian army was responsible for the killings.[180]'

Gatling

@grumpyperson I am 100% against troops killing innocent civilians and especially children. The images from Bucha are horrendous. The UN has called for an independent investigation and hopefully the issue will be resolved and justice served.

Russia was also asking for an independent investigation.

That pretty much sounds like a denial Russia carried out the massacre at bucha

Hopefully the issue will be resolved, what does hopefully the issue is resolved mean exactly???

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825810#Comment_120825810

Russian claims aren't credible

I don't know how to qualify that. I remember Putin saying some of the freedom fighters in Syria were dangerous and shared a video of a man eating the heart of an enemy soldier. It turned out that Isis was involved so their claims were quite credible in that instance and they helped defeat Isis by destroying the oil infrastructure Isis was using as reported by the ft.

It may very well be that russian troops we t berserk in Bucha and committed attrocities. Maybe it was Wagner mercenaries? I literally have no inside line and hope the UN investigates.

Remember Ukraine said Russia bombed Poland and then ....

I don't hold a lot of confidence in claims that either Russia or Ukraine make, they are the two most corrupt countries in Europe. Both rated more corrupt than Belarus by transparency international.

As I said, I advocate Ireland push for a ceasefire. I have never been more disappointed by the current leadership in the country. Cork and Dublin. I just think they have no real understanding of the troubles in the North of Ireland. Instead of pushing for peace, they are siding with a major participant, the USA.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825877#Comment_120825877

Qualify?

On 6 May 2022, Amnesty International published the results of their investigation of the massacre. It concluded that Russian forces were guilty of unlawful attacks and willful killings of civilians in Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka, and Vorzel.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823632#Comment_120823632

Under different Circumstances and dealing with different Country's, that might have at least a chance to work. But with Russia and Putin, not a hope of the proverbial snowball in hell!!. In his 20 odd years of dictatorship, he has proved many times that his word is worthless. He has proved over an over again and again that he is a thief and a liar. And much much worse than that.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825727#Comment_120825727

Those aren't the questions you were asked and you know it.

You talk around Ukraine's right to join the EU without answering the question put to you about Russian interference:

Do you accept that Ukraine has the right as a sovereign state to join the EU without Russian interference? As is provided for in the Budapest and Helsinki accords Russia signed either in its own right or as USSR?

You talk around Bucha without actually condemning it as a Russian atrocity. This amounts to a denial of Russia responsibility for Bucha. It is the same nonsense those spreading Russian propaganda resorted to with the downing of MH17.

You resort to the morally bankrupt position of 'both sides'.

You say you are against war yet will not condemn Russia for starting the war, not condemn its documented war crimes, and appear happy for Russia to be rewarded for its warmongering with Ukrainian territory and Ukraine acceding to its political demands.

You don't even condemn without reservation Russia's attacks on civilian targets. Always always always there will be a both sides, whataboutery or passive language "oh it's terrible about those civilians" without mentioning it was Russia that killed them.

You think we don't notice such evasions? It's a constant cycle of obvious tactics.

Therefore it is meaningless to state that you are against war.

Your posts here are proof positive you are an apologist for Russia's war of imperialism, and their atrocities.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823814#Comment_120823814

To be fair nothing is ever 100% and those idiots are exhibit A. But there is zero doubt that Ireland is not neutral and is 100% on Ukraine's side and in general equally we are not neutral and 100% on the side of the democratic, free and open societies of which we are one in the world.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825877#Comment_120825877

It may very well be that russian troops we t berserk in Bucha and committed attrocities. Maybe it was Wagner mercenaries?

Wagner weren't in Bucha.

Remember Ukraine said Russia bombed Poland and then ....

A missile hit Poland. Since Russia was regularly firing missiles at Ukraine it was initially speculated that it was a Russian missile. Later it was confirmed it wasn't.

I don't hold a lot of confidence in claims that either Russia or Ukraine make, they are the two most corrupt countries in Europe. Both rated more corrupt than Belarus by transparency international.

Ukraine historically had a relatively high level of corruption (like many ex-Soviet satellites states), in recent years there have been national efforts to clean it up, with progress being made. Recently we saw Zelensky announce multiple investigations, with certain officials have been removed over the last year.

Russia is extremely corrupt on every level, with no efforts being made. Putin is believed to be one of the wealthiest men in the world despite being a civil servant his entire life.

You don't make any distinction between both countries, instead you make a lazy comparison. Putin is totalitarian dictator, in complete contrast Zelensky was democratically elected. Again you don't make any distinction, instead you lazily compare and "both sides" it.

As I said, I advocate Ireland push for a ceasefire.

To repeat (for the 100th time), it's not a "dispute" between two countries. One country is murdering the other, to take it over. You want the defender to stop defending itself.

In the Russian occupied areas, Ukrainians are being raped, murdered, tortured, systematically. Their children are being trafficked to Russia. They are losing everything, their freedom, their culture, identity. They knew this before Russia attacked, and it's been proven by the horrors we've seen from liberated Bucha, Borodyanka and other occupied areas. Poll after poll has shown overwhelmingly support for the defence of Ukraine from the horror and brutality of Russian occupation. Zelensky has among the highest approval ratings of any world leader.

They are laying their lives on the line for the sake of their families, their children and the future of their country. To die facing their enemy, rather than being shot in the back in a basement in Bucha. Yet here you are deciding "what's best" for the Ukrainians. Wow.

It's up to the Ukrainians what they do with their lives. They will decide when and if they go to the table with their murderer.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120826170#Comment_120826170

No sovereign state has a right to join the so-called "EU" as that would make it no longer a sovereign state.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827480#Comment_120827480

You must be delighted to live in a place that is no longer part of the so-called "EU" and pay for your groceries in sterling.

Did you vote for Brexit and celebrate on the 31st January 2020?

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827539#Comment_120827539

Of course I voted for Brexit - it was fundamentally the right thing to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827622#Comment_120827622

Brexit- Not much FUN and plenty of MENTAL.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827480#Comment_120827480

Completely off-topic: but whatever one's feelings on the politics of the EU (to which theres' a whiff of hyperbole), it's not so-called anything; it's called the European Union (EU). That's its name. That's like saying the "so-called" United States of America, or the "so-called" planet Earth. Conferring quotation marks doesn't automatically delegitimise the thing.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823632#Comment_120823632

All fine except that you are dealing with PUTIN. He is significantly outside the Bell graph equivalent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823632#Comment_120823632

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823899#Comment_120823899

Also, The Russian navy fleet had an agreed time limit at its base in Crimea from the time The USSR broke up in 1991. The fleet never withdrew and which was to happen long before Ru invaded Crimea

Zico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828488#Comment_120828488

The Russians did vacate the former Soviet base in Cam Ranh Bay without much fuss. It's highly unlikely the Chinese will allow them back there though.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828407#Comment_120828407

Being "called" that doesn't mean that it's not so-called. I don't recognise it as a Union - I recognise only Ireland free from the centre to the sea. The so-called "EU" is beneath contempt, and an enemy of the All-Ireland Republic.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829018#Comment_120829018

##Mod Note##

Off-Topic and irrelevant.

Move on.