Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120826170#Comment_120826170

There is no need for bold or CAPS.

Do you accept that Ukraine has the right as a sovereign state to join the EU without Russian interference?

I answered this. Ukraine does not have the right to join the EU, I think it should have the right to apply to join the EU. However, it doesn't matter what I think , it matters what Russia thinks.

The USA still has crippling sanctions Cuba and Venezuela. Russia could react similarly and the leadership of Ukraine needs to take such probabilities into consideration.

I hadn't read amnesties report on Bucha which is not conclusive but gives enough of an indication to condemn the russian killings in Bucha.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-further-evidence-russian-war-crimes-bucha-and-other-towns-new-report

i condemn the killing of civilians by russian military as outlined in the report.

I also condemn the torture and murder committed by the Ukrainian tornado battalion.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/07/30/zelensky-militants-convicted-child-rape-torture-military/

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830803#Comment_120830803

As expected,

You dodge the question about the EU. That's not the question you were asked and you know it.

Does Ukraine have the right to join the EU without Russian interference? Therefore do you condemn such Russia interference?

If it doesn't matter what you think, and only what Russia thinks, why are you posting here?

And you are unable to condemn atrocities such as Bucha and other Russian warcrimes.

You only do so with reservation and whataboutery.

And still you do not condemn Russia for starting the war and invading Ukraine?

Even though it is a breach of the the Budapest agreement (and other diplomatic agreeements).

And weren't you earlier on the thread urging mediation and diplomacy?

And yet here is Russia ripping up diplomatic agreements. And you do not condemn or criticise them.

The hypocrisy of this position is clear. What is the point of urging diplomacy then when Ukraine has tried it and Russia broke the treaty and you say nothing?

Your equivocations and apologies for Russian atrocities and aggressive war continue.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830914#Comment_120830914

I find your interrogation weird and insulting. I don't have enough information to make the calls you want me to make.

Does Ukraine have the right to join the EU without Russian interference? 

Let's rephrase, does russian have the right to interfere if Ukraine tries to join the EU. I think it probably does, which means Ukraine has no such right.

Therefore do you condemn such Russia interference?

I personally with the facts at hand would be of the opinion that it would be bad form of Russia to try to subvert the goal of the Ukraine to join the EU.

I don't know enough about the war to assign blame.

We know about the coup, the anti russian language stuff, the Odessa massacre, the huge numbers killed in donbas, USA weapons in Ukraine and the OSCE ceasefire violations prior to the invasion by Russia. Some commentators such as Jeffrey Sachs say that Russia was left little option as Ukraine became a significant security concern. I think Russia should have been more diplomatic but unsurprisingly they seem to be useless at diplomacy. I think I definitely would have done things differently if I was president of Russia but the whole country could have splintered into anarchist states like Uzbekistan if I was on charge. In the years to come it may be easier to assign blame.

On the Russian side, meddling in Ukraine and meddling poorly is a big problem. It was difficult for them to stay out of it given the treatment of some ethnic Russian's in Ukraine but especially trying to bribe Ukraine to stay away from EU before the coup was pretty awful. They should have pushed to broker peace in the donbass rather than side with the breakaway state. They're just not doing enough to ingratiate themselves to their neighbours although things might be simpler if the USA was not trying to destabilise Russia.

I'm currently on the fence leaning towards Russia being at fault.

Also to note, since the war started support for stepan bandera has increased. The opposite of Russia's stated goal.

To my my mind neither country is wholely innocent. I think Ukraine acted very stupidly with it's bigger more dangerous neighbour and throwing away the no to NATO deal brokered in Turkey was crazy.

Finally, I'm an Irish citizen and do not apologize for atrocities committed by Russia, Ukraine, USA or otherwise.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830803#Comment_120830803

Assuming Russia fails in effort to annex / destroy Ukraine, which looks likely, it doesn't matter any more what the Russians think about its prospective EU membership.

That ship has sailed now. It is between the EU members and Ukraine.

NATO membership is similar. Ukraine is going to be at minimum "defacto" member now (when the war is over) whether Russia likes this or not (probably not).

Just throwing it out there as they say...but I think the future trade relations with Russia may be fairly low down on Ukrainian govt.'s list of considerations post war!

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828488#Comment_120828488

Viktor yanukovic then president of Ukraine in 2014 before fleeing to Moscow with billions of Euros belongings to the Ukrainans extended the lease on the Russians base at Sevastopol

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831062#Comment_120831062

You don't know enough about the war to 'assign blame' yet you always seem to know enough when you want to criticise the US or Ukraine. You make statements of fact about a 'coup', 'deaths in Donbas' without foundation.

The deaths in Donbas are due to Russian presence and actions, directly and indirectly. Your vague descriptions of them ignore this. By what standard of evidence do you make such claims yet when it comes to Bucha have nothing to say???

You continue to mention a deal brokered by Turkey as if it was a tangible deal and a fact, when your previous claims on the thread about it have been thoroughly discredited. You apply an entirely different standard of evidence to anything that suits your pro-Russian agenda to eg Russian atrocities such as Bucha.

It is obvious you have been fed a diet of anti-Western pro-Russian propaganda. You mention violations of ceasefires yet never mention violations of Budapest agreement. You didn't even seem to know what it was until it was pointed out to you here.

The hostility in your tone when commenting on the US or Ukraine is in marked difference to the equivocal language used about Russia especially considering the scale of their actions and atrocities in comparison. 'Bad form'? Bad form? Come off it.

The double standards and pro-Russian nature of your posts are obvious.

You can't keep your story straight as you contradict yourself within the same post trying to exonerate Russia:

Does russian have the right to interfere if Ukraine tries to join the EU. I think it probably does, which means Ukraine has no such right.

And yet it would be 'bad form' to do so???

You call for diplomacy, yet have no words of criticism for Russia when it violates diplomatic treaties with Ukraine. Including treaties which give Ukraine the right to make such decisions So what is the point of calling for diplomacy? You can't answer because you have none.

You are not interested enough in atrocities such as Bucha to educate yourself about the basic facts. You seem to happy to not "know enough about the war".

You talk of war mongerers yet will not condemn without reservation the man who started the war - Putin.

I see nothing here to change the previous statements- your posts here are as apologists for Russian imperialism, apologists for Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, apologists for Russian atrocities and war crimes. Your claims here have no credibility.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830803#Comment_120830803

What on earth difference do you think russian sanctions on Ukraine would make? It would be the height of irrelevancy

Gatling

@grumpyperson On the Russian side, meddling in Ukraine and meddling poorly is a big problem. It was difficult for them to stay out of it given the treatment of some ethnic Russian's in Ukraine but especially trying to bribe Ukraine to stay away from EU before the coup was pretty awful. They should have pushed to broker peace in the donbass rather than side with the breakaway state. ..

What treatment of ethic Russians are you talking about,

They should have broker peace in donesk and lughansk according to you ,well they were the ones fighting in Ukraine against ukraine, Russian military forces and lead by Russian FSB agents, there was no break away it was an invasion

You refer to the Odessa massacre which was not a massacre is was a fire caused by people (Russians ) throwing petrol bombs down on top of Ukrainans that started the fire which spread rapidly due to the storage of petrol in the building and baracades set up by the Russians

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831239#Comment_120831239

Russian threatened to apply economic sanctions to Ukraine back when Ukraine was considering signing the EU treaty. This was in clear violation of Budapest agreement. It was this that directly led to the 'coup' or democratic revolution to depose Yanukovych.

Of course, that cohort of posters who urge diplomacy and shout 'coup' also always profess ignorance of these violations by Russia of the diplomatic treaty (Budapest Agreement). Amazing this is the Ukraine thread and they are always happy to engage in whataboutery about sanctions elsewhere, while not wanting to know the basic facts of such sanctions as they apply to the situation in Ukraine.

Says it all.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831146#Comment_120831146

Largely agree regarding EU, however I'd imagine more bombing/ war if they keep going for NATO.

Ukraine has a long long road in terms of corruption, democracy etc if it wants to join the EU.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831498#Comment_120831498

Not really,they have made huge strides over the last 9 years

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831194#Comment_120831194

I've tried to add balance to the conversation here. If it was all pro russian I'd be highlighting Russia's failings. I think I've said enough. At the start of the war I was horrified and was offering a room in our home. I started to read more and discovered a lot of stuff that simply wasn't being reported especially as regards USA interference and USA support of right wing Ukrainian groups etc.

I'm glad we are helping the Ukrainian civilians in Ireland but want the war to end and discussions to start. That's it. You don't like that I'm not shouting kill all Russian's or whatever but I'm not. It seems an awful mess, just look at this.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

Total assholes that are completely insulated from the violence are perpetuating this war. They should stop and negotiate a deal. A new state similar to Kosovo in between Russia and Ukraine might be the best outcome and regular border polls by the UN to see if they want reintegration into Ukraine.

Instead of a frozen war with the new state, Ukraine could try win it back through cooperation and decency etc. see for reference Northern Ireland

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831498#Comment_120831498

Am always surprised by what people can do and how fast they can act when the will is there (which I expect it will be as regards Ukraine getting ready for EU membership). Could be a shorter road than you think.

Anyways I don't think any post war settlement (or even some kind of "pause" that just goes on and on with periods of lower/higher tensions) without a wider security guarantee will be acceptable to Ukraine.

Giving up on territories Russia has taken may be possible, but that is not. They really will be trying to avoid having another Russian leader (or even Putin in dotage) come along later and do all this again. So who provides the guarantees? IMO it will be those who are aiding & arming Ukraine right now (as their old Soviet era weapons get used up in the war) and training their soldiers. i.e. NATO members. So, as said assuming it survives it will be a de-facto NATO member itself.

Russia's real world military reaction to "encroachment" of NATO on its borders (e.g. Finnish membership & Swedish application to join) is interesting I think.

Instead of going paranoid, reinforcing the borders, they draw down all their forces and equipment that was defending the motherland against this deadly NATO menace, round up everything they have to fire at Ukraine and try and beat it down.

They are obviously not worried about serious NATO threats to Russia's security from that quarter; waging Putin's 21C "lebensraum" war in Ukraine is a far higher priority.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/politics/russia-finland-nato-border.html

On a recent afternoon along Finland’s border with Russia, an attack from Russian military bases a few miles away seemed a distant prospect.

That’s not only because, as NATO’s newest member, Finland now enjoys the guaranteed protection of 30 nations, including the United States — a development that President Biden will celebrate during a visit to Helsinki next week.

It’s also because most of the Russians once stationed in the area went to fight in Ukraine, and many if not most of them, Finnish officials say, are dead. It may be years before Russia poses a conventional military threat from across the verdant forest of pine, spruce and birch.

As usual with Russia, actions can be relied on to reveal the truth of the matter (they do not fear a military attack by NATO), words are just intended to deceive and can be ignored.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831544#Comment_120831544

You have been posting nothing but Kremlin propaganda while crying for peace,but I'm bringing balance to the discussion as a citizen of Ireland (nobody Say's that ) while telling us about Donbas and a fire in Odessa,

Couldn't make it more obvious if you tried

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827622#Comment_120827622

If a second referendum were held tomorrow, or if people knew back then what they know now, there would have been a far different result. In a possible future referendum, the result would be to rejoin, and rightly so, The British People were led down the garden path by a bunch of lying charlatans.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828569#Comment_120828569

I imagine that there would not be any arguing with the Chinese.....they would simply say to the Russians " Your lease is up, kindly begone before that date, Thank you." And as they say, that would be that!!!

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831498#Comment_120831498

Yes, but compared to Russian corruption, its just minor stuff.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831544#Comment_120831544

After Putin leaves Ukraine all of it, as in pre '91, then any differences can be discussed and ironed out democratically, but not until the Russians have left.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831647#Comment_120831647

Nonsense. If there were another Neverendum then there would be an even greater leave vote for having the audacity to ask again. Leave means LEAVE forever.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832371#Comment_120832371

What on earth has this to do with Ukraine?

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832550#Comment_120832550

I didn't bring it up.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825877#Comment_120825877

Even that is an attempt at exculpation. Talk about soldiers going ''berserk'', ''out of control'' etc takes the responsibility away from their superiors and onto individuals and onto factors like frustration, lack of training and indiscipline. The fact is that these kinds of killings more often than not were not random but were targeted executions aimed at destroying individuals who might have organized resistance, assisted Ukrainian forces or obstructed the work of the occupiers. The same MO that the Russians have displayed before and especially, in their Soviet guise, during their occupation of the Baltic States and Eastern Poland in 1940. Destroy the population's capacity for defiance or organization by decapitating local society by killing or arresting influential locals, civic officials, veterans, officers, policemen and media people.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831062#Comment_120831062

I answered this. Ukraine does not have the right to join the EU, I think it should have the right to apply to join the EU. However, it doesn't matter what I think , it matters what Russia thinks.

Ukraine has every right to apply for and join the EU. Ukraine is a sovereign independent nation.

I don't know enough about the war to assign blame.

Yet you do, whilst rehashing known Russian disinfo.

We know about the coup, the anti russian language stuff, the Odessa massacre, the huge numbers killed in donbas, USA weapons in Ukraine and the OSCE ceasefire violations prior to the invasion by Russia.

There was no "coup".

Russia proxy invaded South East Ukraine in 2014, Ukraine defended it's territory, people died in that conflict, in classic Putin style he blamed the deaths on Ukrainians. The Russians repeatedly broke their own ceasefires in the conflict they created. Ukraine requested military assistance from other countries, which was well within it's rights, and other countries helped Ukraine, which was perfectly legal.

I feel I am repeating myself here.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831544#Comment_120831544

You have consistently push fringe and select info that attempts to lay blame on other countries for the war. This is directly in line with Putin's propaganda methods to divert blame away from Russia's unilateral responsibility for invading Ukraine. Not only are you repeating it but you use the ploy that you are "just seeking balance".

"Ukraine could try win it back through cooperation and decency etc"

"regular border polls by the UN to see if they want reintegration into Ukraine."

Your language keeps giving away your agenda that you believe Ukraine is partly responsible for this war, and also should be making concessions to Putin. The false "objectivity" is not hiding it either.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831498#Comment_120831498

Sure they have, but they have started on that road, unlike Russia, where the corruption originated in the USSR days, and was refined by Putin and Co. and will ultimately be the end of Putin and the Russian Federation, a road they are well progressing on. Putins latest financial scam? A scheme offering all Russian's the chance of a lifetime....put their savings in special Government bonds that will mature in 15 years time. Any investors out there like to take a chance? ( some unkindly people might suggest that the bottom of the war money barrel has been scraped clean, and urgent measures are needed immediately )

Hermy

Is it known yet just how damaging the war has been for Russia?

And is there any notion of how long they can continue the invasion or will Western support for Ukraine eventually win out?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833600#Comment_120833600

This article is relevant to the first question... the second question I suspect "the god of battles will throw the dice that decide".

During a July 4 hearing in Parliament, British Defense Chief Admiral Tony Radakin said that Russia had lost nearly half its combat capability in Ukraine. "Russia has lost nearly half the combat effectiveness of its army," Radakin said. "Last year it fired 10 million artillery shells but at best can produce 1 million shells a year. It has lost 2,500 tanks and at best can produce 200 tanks a year."

https://kyivindependent.com/uk-armed-forces-chief-russia/

Field east

Or Ru could try and give up what is not their’s through COOPERATION AND DECENCY

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831498#Comment_120831498

As do all the countries currently within the Accession process; once bitten, twice shy when it comes to Hungary I daresay, but the hurdles are pretty clearcut. Whatever else you say about the EU, you can't claim they're not exacting.

However, Ukraine is free to chart its own destiny. The invasion by a country intent on regime change and a restoration of the USSR by another name, is probably not going to help designs towards a reduction in corruption - wouldn't you say?

Hermy

That's a pretty damning article from a Russian perspective, particularly the figures for the munitions they've lost verses the rate at which they can replace them. There's a massive shortfall there.

But in asking about the damage to Russia I'm wondering also about manpower, public opinion, political support, and their economy too? Is it known if there has been significant lasting damage to these other areas yet or will Russia limp on under Putin regardless?