Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868893#Comment_120868893

This is the piece I observed.

According Ukrainska Pravda sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning, brought two simple messages.

The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with.

And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.

That last subsentence. 'they are not.'

I have not knowingly lied, however you seem to have done your utmost to pervert and twist everything I have said.

None so blind as those who will not see

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867650#Comment_120867650

Not sure what relevance you think any of this has?

The US acted appallingly in Vietnam at times. It was always US journalists who exposed the My Lai massacre eventually. This concept of investigative reporting is alien in Russia.

No one actually thinks that US is beyond reproach. But when people make comparisons between Western media and Russian propaganda, they are talking nonsense.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867834#Comment_120867834

No they had not. Which someone involved in the actual negotiations has said on record. The israeli representative though it was maybe 50/50 to get a deal done, then zero chance once the revelations around Bucha came out. Where to you get your news from?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868807#Comment_120868807

Are you calling Gorbachev a liar? Because he has said publicly that there was no guarantee ever given to not expand NATO eastwards.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868917#Comment_120868917

You have lied and this is the proof from the Pravda article which you originally cited:

"The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories."

It is a lie you persist in even though you have read the article and have read the above sentence. You deliberately omit this and have therefore lied about the article contents.

It has been put to you muptiple times that the article you cited lists this as a major reason Ukraine did not continue the talks. Yet you continue to cite the article as proof the only reason Ukraine didnt sign a treaty was because of Johnsons intervention.

The article simply does not support your claim of a treaty practically ready to sign except for Boris Johnson. Nowhere does it state Ukraine were ready to do so. Nowhere does it state there was anything close to an agreed treaty merely something tentative.

And it lists multiple reasons for the talks stopping - directly contradicting your summary.

Your description of the Pravda article is a deliberate misrepresentation i.e. a lie.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/5/7344206/

and this article - which you refuse to engage despite it beng posted multiple times on thread - further elaborates on the reasons for Ukrainian reluctance to proceed with the deal.

https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article7852

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868972#Comment_120868972

I stopped here.

You have lied and this is the proof from the Pravda article which you originally cited:

I'm not engaging further on this with someone who has insisted on name calling in every post. I have resisted name calling back (mainly because I'd be instantly banned) and instead have remained civil.

I may be right I may be wrong. I have read around the topic from both sides and have tried to present the situation as I see it. You don't like the way I see it fine. But calling me a liar repeatedly is just not acceptable to me as I am not intentionally saying untrue statements.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie

It's possible you don't know the meaning of the word lie?

If you can manage to engage without attacking me personally, I'll try to reply but I've had enough of your bile for the moment.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868654#Comment_120868654

The "Neocons"? It's not 2023 not 2003. The Democrats are in power. The key GOP candidates support Putin.

RFK is a full on loon anti-vaxxer quack.

Thinktanks don't make policy.

We're almost into Infowars territory here

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120869086#Comment_120869086

I politely asked you why you cited the Pravda article but omitted this key part of it:

"The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories."

This key part of the article directly contradicts your assertion that without Johnsons / NATO intervention talks would have led to a treaty being signed.

You were unable to offer any explanation as to why you omitted it.

You can not deny knowledge of this part of the article as you say you have read the article and the sentence has been presented to you on the thread.

So clearly you know the article itself conflicts with how you are citing it.

The article makes it clear that the talks were tentative and that there were multiple reasons why Ukraine halted them. The contents do not match your description of them.

Yet you have cited the article multiple times as if it supports your claim when it does not. This is deceptive and deliberately so. You continue to cherry pick one piece of the article in the full knowledge the rest of the article contradicts you.

This is not about the way you see it. This is about you deliberately misreprenting the article contents as statements of fact.

You have not challenged any of the points of fact I have made about the article contents.

I do not make the accusation lightly but in this instance I have put the evidence on this thread that you have made statements that you know to be untrue. You have not been truthful / honest / fair in how you have cited the article or about its contents.

You cite one piece of the article as 'gospel' pretending the rest of it doesnt exist - because it contradicts you.

And you do not engage with other evidence presented which add nuance to the story (eg https://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article7852)

You have locked onto one piece of one article and no matter what the article actually says as a whole or what other articles say you will keep repeating the same cherry picked snippet out of context.

It is an entirely bad faith argument.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120869086#Comment_120869086

You have repeatedly lied in your posts ,you keep making claims about a treaties and agreements that were never made ,you have produced zero evidence to back up your lies , you link to the mai lai massacre to somehow detract from the evidence of Russian soldiers raping babies to the elderly in Ukraine,you ignore reports of massacres of innocent civilians in Ukraine by Russian forces, torture,castrations and torture of Ukrainian prisoners ,

You try to play with oh I just hope they independently investigate there crimes so we can see who's to blame,

The Russians invaded Ukraine,the Russians massacred unarmed civilians,the Russians raped babies to the elderly,the Russians did it ,

Trying to blame Ukraine for anything is not only dishonest,it's trolling and it's down right sick ....

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120869167#Comment_120869167

The last FIFTY odd posts were VERY EASY to read because once I see that GRUMPYPERSON is involved I just immediately skip over all. I cannot understand why any boardie would respond to they/her/him and to give t/h/h to oxygen to keep going with his tripe - a professional TROLLER if there ever was a one - unless he is just looking for something to be GRUMPY about

Christy42

The good news is that Ukraine joining Nato is no longer a security threat for Russia so I am guessing try can all go home.

Finland has joined Nato so obviously Russian security has been completely compromised already (I mean or else they wouldn't have invaded Ukraine to stop them joining right?)

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867650#Comment_120867650

Negotiate about What, exactly? The Russians have been adamant that the areas they conquered are now part of Russia in perpetuity. You think the Ukrainians should simply accept the Russian proposition "what we have we hold", which is basically little short of surrender? There isn't a nation on earth that would negotiate with an enemy state on that basis. That's not even to mention the "demilitarization" and "denazification".

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867840#Comment_120867840

There was absolutely no similarity between the cases. Considering that unanimity among existing members was required and that more then one member state was reluctant, Ukraine was years away at best from becoming a member. Just another attempt at distraction from Putin, which has been swallowed hook, line and sinker by his Vatnik supporters outside Russia.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120870381#Comment_120870381

That's how the word is used diplomacy = surrender to whatever Russian demands. Or else you are morally at fault for what happens, not the Russians actually carrying out the child abuse, war crimes, atrocities. As if life under Russian occupation would be sitting around a camp fire signing songs of peace.

Utterly morally and intellectually bankrupt position doing Russia's propaganda work for them. Always finding an apology or excuse for Russia's atrocities and warcrimes.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120869086#Comment_120869086

I think he knows the meaning just fine.

Dohnjoe

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1681704119654858752

Translation: Any grain ships will be blown up.

Reportedly around 60,000 tonnes of grain were destroyed in the missile and suicide drone attacks on Odessa and Chernomorsk last night, along with port and grain facilities heavily damaged.

Putin again targeting global food supply.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871829#Comment_120871829

And still (2022) Ireland exports hundreds of millions worth of chemical, technical and medical machinery to Russia!

grumpyperson

Great interview with Jeffrey Sachs who worked on currency stabilisation with Poland and russia after the breakup of the USSR.

For anyone interested, he explains how NATO (USA) pressured Ukraine into saying no to the Russian peace deal last year.

##Mod Snip##

Please don't just dump an entire Podcast and say "have a listen/watch"

By all means use links to support a point being made but link dumping like this isn't allowed.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872057#Comment_120872057

He's a pro-Putin pundit.

You are going through these people one by one, which I strongly suspect you are gleaning from anti-West/pro-Putin feeds

pixelburp

On a big day when Russia threatens the world's grain supply, vowing to attack ships deemed allied to Ukraine... having already attacked Odessa..., look over there! It was NATO wot done it your honour.

It's transparent.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872057#Comment_120872057

Work on currency something something NATO...

Did you forget to connect the dots?

Your lies and the russian lies on this topic have already been thoroughly discredited.

Remember this was in the article you posted to the thread yet you try to carry on on the thread as if it doesnt exist:

"The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories."

So it is Russian atrocities, war crimes, rapes and child rape and abuse that pressured Ukraine into fighting on.

The West told them they would help Ukraine in that fight and that Russia could not be trusted to abide by any peace deal. Something which Ukraine were already aware of from bitter cost.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872072#Comment_120872072

I would adjust one word in your above post if I may suggest. Scratch the word pundit and replace it with the word puppet.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868586#Comment_120868586

I am curious, what did Bojo do that led to war continuing on as long as it has?

Always thought he was a bit of a bufoonish character as the UK PM and quite inept.

Who knew he was busy plotting and fouling up the agreements of world importance that Putin the Man of Peace and Humanitarian was slaving tirelessly over, causing NATO to go to war and attack Russia (or was that Ukraine they attacked, or was it the other way around!?!).

If you are going to say he was just the US messenger or whatever, he certainly is not respected or trusted at all by any of the Biden admin. imo. One would not think they would choose him as go between for something of that level of importance [if they wanted to pressure Ukraine's govt. to keep fighting somehow].

I think the other part of that article is more likely to contain part of the explanation for why those talks ended, Russia has stirred up a scary level of hatred in Ukraine and poisoned the well + perhaps made it hard for the govt. there to negotiate with them. That in addition to fact that Putin thinks he can win the day still [was even more certain and confident back then I expect] and has no real interest in peace.

Dohnjoe

Relevant

##Mod Snip##

No Memes please.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872579#Comment_120872579

No idea. Sachs says around the 29 minute that he spoke with an EU leader at Vilnius who confirmed his theory. Ukraine were told not to continue with the Russian treaty.

Maybe it's all rubbish but I have respect for Sachs, no idea why anyone would think he's a puppet, his whole drive seems to be around transparency, honesty and a safer, better world for humanity. He was great on the Lancet committee during covid19 especially in light of recent revelations. Strikes me as an honest decent person unafraid to tell the truth.

Check him out if you've time.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878090#Comment_120878090

Sachs has no credibility. He has gone full conspiracy theory wingnut on many issues. Such as discussing covid conspiracy theories with anti vax and anti semite dog whistler RFK Jr.

And now Russia. He was invited to speak by Russia at the UN. He has absolutely no claim to be any sort of neutral 'expert', in this. As to how a background in economics makes you an expert in these matters I don't know. You seem to think so though and yet far larger number of similar 'experts' dispute and discredit Sachs unreliable take on events. But of course, you will likely to ignore the weight of expert opinion, lock in on a small number of pro-Russian voices so you can continue repeating the same anti-US, pro Russian propaganda cues.

His concept for peace is the same discredited nonsense that was tried and failed before. He offers zero explanation as to how a Budapest Mark II could be made to work.

As has been pointed out by a far larger number of 'experts' (see below):

Given that Ukraine’s agreement to give up its nuclear weapons in 1994 in exchange for security “assurances” from the US, UK and Russia (!) did nothing to prevent Russian aggression, currently the only credible guarantee is NATO membership.

I have zero confidence in any the reliability of any statement he makes, and based on your past misrepresentations of articles, your summary of it likewise has none.

Remember, you repeatedly post on this thread, making bad faith arguments based on a Pravda article which refusing to engage with the actual article contents as they discredit your position entirely. Your claims here accordingly have no credibility as you present an entirely bad faith argument based on ignoring the contents of an article you cited on the thread:

"The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories."

Apparently you consider Sachs an 'expert' so here's the rebuttal letter from a huge number of experts, documenting Russian ethnic cleansing as well as:

Your interventions present a distorted picture of the origins and intentions of the Russian invasion, mix facts and subjective interpretations, and propagate the Kremlin’s narratives. Ukraine is not a geopolitical pawn or a divided nation, Ukraine has the right to determine its own future, Ukraine has not attacked any country since gaining its independence in 1991. There is no justification for the Russian war of aggression. A clear moral compass, respect of international law, and a firm understanding of Ukraine’s history should be the defining principles for any discussions towards a just peace.

So here you have it, 'expert' proof of Russia responsibility for the conflict and ethnic cleansing:

https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey-sachs-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878090#Comment_120878090

No idea. Sachs says around the 29 minute that he spoke with an EU leader at Vilnius who confirmed his theory. Ukraine were told not to continue with the Russian treaty.

Bearing in mind that Sachs is about as qualified to talk on this stuff as I am ( frankly, I suspect less so), if one wanted to investigate this allegation seriously you would have to ask exactly what kind of leverage BJ or the EU in general would be able to apply so as to force Urkaine to continue fighting a war on its own soil that was leading to the deaths of thousands of its own citizens that they had a way out of. There simply is no plausible answer to that question.

Sachs' problem, from what little I have seen of his commentary, is that he is a highly credulous man who takes often clearly fabricated information at face value. While I can not speak to his endeavours in other fields, in the case of his commentary on the Russian invasion he is, frankly, an ignorant fool.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878090#Comment_120878090

He's not selling you the truth, he's selling you a counterfactual narrative. One that aligns to his fringe world views. Whether he's appearing on Putin's propaganda network, defending Xi Jinpings China or entertaining Covid conspiracy theories, it's always the same.

"But I like what he has to say". Okay. People like what Trump has to say. People like what Alex Jones has to say. For the same reasons, that they are telling it like it is, the "real truth".

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878363#Comment_120878363

A splendid, closely argued article that methodically dismantles the arguments of the Ruzzian apologists.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878901#Comment_120878901

He didn't sell me anything. I notice on Wikipedia they now call the 2014 coup the revolution of dignity. The also say Sachs said that covid19 may have emerged out of the US. He said no such thing.

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/19/covid-lab-leak-evidence-jeffrey-sachs/

i don't know what is going on in the world anymore with the amount of disinformation from companies meant to combat disinformation. He is known for his work on sustainable development, economic development, and the fight to end poverty. It's sad how anonymous internet nerds and biased reporters can misrepresent him.