Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

johnnyskeleton · 26-02-2022 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696408#Comment_118696408

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696455#Comment_118696455

Kyiv is only 100km from Belarus, with only a few towns in between. The Ukrainian army took the tactical call not to try to defend the border as it would be hopeless, so they are mounting the defence outside, and ultimately in, large cities like Kyiv.

The Russians believed that they would have taken Kyiv by now. As matters stand, they are not in the city itself. They tried to take the airports and failed. They suffered significant casualties getting to Kyiv (expecting there to be little or no casualties along the road). They have carried out a large scale bomb and missile assault on the Ukraine, which has caused some civilian casualties and successfully damaged the air defences, but hasn't significantly damaged the Ukrainian army or government's ability to defend their country.

So when you ask which is it and pose a false dichotomy of either "the Russians are at the Kiev gates" or that the Russians are being held back more than they thought they would be, in reality it is both. But if you have to pick one, it is that the Russians are being held back. The phrase "the Russians are at the Kiev gates" is evocative of the fall of Rome, where the enemy forces arrive at the largely undefended city which, once it is taken, the nation/empire falls. But that is not the case. If Kyiv falls, the rest of Ukraine is likely to keep fighting on. It is also clear that Kyiv is well defended, and Russia will find it very difficult to take Kyiv.

There are lots of videos of the wreckage if you care to google it or even watch Sky News. They show footage of Ukranian forces inspecting the aftermath of battles outside Kharkiv and Kyiv. But we won't have confirmation of exact numbers etc until much later. That said, I'm sure the Ukrainian statements that they have killed, wounded or captured 3,500 Russian troops, destroyed 80 tanks and shot down 10 fighter jets is an exaggeration. But the fact that there have been significant casualties on both sides seems reasonably clear

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696410#Comment_118696410

I've been skeptical of Zlenskyy in the past but my god he's been magnificent during all this. The night before the invasion he gave a speech in Russian were he spoke directly to the Russian people asking them was this what they really wanted and was this really in their name? He went on tell them that the Ukrainians would be forced to face them and kill them if they invaded his country.

Since the invasion began, he has been consistent and persistent with his messaging. He has refused the opportunity to flee (which Viktor Yanakovich did laughably quickly during after the Maidan protests in 2014). He has eulogized the dead and rallied the troops. That might all sound like basic stuff but you'd be amazed at how many leaders couldn't pull it off in the high pressure situation he is in right now. He's made sure to show everyone he's still in Kiev and that he's not backing down. He has been incredible and if you cannot see that for yourself then I honestly don't know what you've been watching.

lulublue22 · 26-02-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696444#Comment_118696444

Are you trolling or a genuine Putin supporter ? Are you advocating NATO troops on the ground and potential escalation to WWW3 ? I’m just not sure what your objective is. Impotence ? Wouldn’t agree - caught napping yes definitely. Will the political landscape of Europe change after this - undoubtedly. Energy will be a big issue as will military spending. However in my opinion Putin has gambled and is in the throes of loosing. Money talks and no matter how much money one has no one likes to lose it. China is playing the long game and does the role of frenemy quite well. It looks like Putin has tried / counted on a quick push on kyiv in goes puppet gov - see told you we were protecting against those bad bad nazi’s , stopping genocide - alls well here nothing to see. Fait accompli. He didn’t however count on the resistance of the Ukrainians - we know he hasn’t committed all his troops / hardware etc and things have the potential to get very very nasty if/ when he does - but harder to come back from Internationally and domestically. You could argue that domestically hardly matters but there always comes a tipping point. In my opinion Putin has gone out on a limb and I don’t think it’s beyond reasonable that he falls off it.

ETA - I see you edited your post since I posted.

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 1:40pm

They're trying to prevent the people of Russia from seeing the truth about what Putin's army is doing in their name:

https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1497528916231155713

combat14 · 26-02-2022 1:48pm

Sounds as if Cyprus and Hungary are agreed to removing russia from swift with germany crunching numbers ..

what countries are left ..

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 1:54pm

Looks like Putin's going to fight exceptionally dirty. This is the sort of war machine that devastated civilian areas of Syria:

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1497530679432785922

Also, this:

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1497547030885019651

VinLieger · 26-02-2022 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696594#Comment_118696594

That should be it since Germany and Italy agreed late last night, hopefully this can happen quickly

lulublue22 · 26-02-2022 1:54pm

I don’t know how anyone could argue that Zelensky is a clown ? He may have been a comedian in a former life but he and his gov are certainly no clowns. They have shown calm steadfast leadership , rallied their people and worked diplomatic channels relentlessly - harnessing support. It has been well documented that several gov officials have taken up arms and decided to fight. To date Zelensky is refusing to leave kyiv despite being on a Russian kill list. Easy to dismiss him as a clown from behind a computer screen in a neutral country. Personally I think he’s shown great courage determination and leadership in a horrendous situation - unless of course you view leadership as leaving your country during armed conflict or rolling over and heading it to a dictator ?

I don’t think this is anything like Crimea and Georgia - Putin has put it up to the EU and threatened our borders - he has also threatened Finland and Sweden militarily if they join NATO. This may fade from the headlines but will have far reaching consequences over the coming decades in terms of defence. This is a step too far not to have consequences.

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696594#Comment_118696594

None:

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1497544729545920513

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696536#Comment_118696536

And what exactly has he achieved precisely 🤔, of course he's lots friends (Now), the international community has been supportive (ish) and yes some great sound bites , but all this said and done, it's achieved nothing but an invasion, I'm not suggesting this is his fault, of course its not and Putin was always going to invade (personally, I thought just the two states) , Putin in essence doent rate Zlenskyy's abilities in every respect.

The international community and I might add the dogs on the street saw this invasion coming, why weren't sanctions imposed long before Putin could act. Yet again World leaders have stood back , offering meaningless sound bites and here we go again.

But watch this space, when this all calms down, Putin back tracks, claims he's achieved his goals and then Zlenskyy's "Friends " go to welcome him back into the fold , how many of those "Friends" of Zlenskyy will continue their support of him 🤔, let me guess, ZERO

This is not rocket science, the conclusion of this will end up with the EU and world leadership forgiving Putin at the expense of Ukrainians , its all about the Gas and Oil, nothing more, nothing less.

Gatling · 26-02-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118695907#Comment_118695907

There already in Moldova , missles were launched from Russian controlled areas .

If anything after this is said and done there should be a push to remove Russian military from Moldova, Georgia and elsewhere

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696594#Comment_118696594

About 200

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696548#Comment_118696548

I have that poster on my Ignore list. I highly recommend it. Apparently they were banned from the Current Affairs/IMHO Russian thread for trolling so that should tell you everything. They're not debating in good faith and you're just wasting energy reading or replying to them. I can now no longer see their posts but if someone replies to them like you did I can see that.

combat14 · 26-02-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696663#Comment_118696663

understand that is all eu countries in agreement now

realdanbreen · 26-02-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118695986#Comment_118695986

One in Limerick tomorrow to the Russian consul on the Ennis Road

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696641#Comment_118696641

That from the Kyiv Independent 🙄

There are over 1000's of financial institutions in 200 countries that use Swift , whilst I'm not doubting most countries supportive of removing Russia from it , the consequences are extreme for 10's of 1000's of businesses and 100's of countries who trade with Russia. If Russia removed they won't get paid and this aside from the consequences regarding the payment for Russian Oil and Gas.

Not a straightforward proposition cutting off Russia from Swift .

lulublue22 · 26-02-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696671#Comment_118696671

All EU countries and Us and Japan and Australia - basically anyone who matters and the other 200 will roll in if it’s implemented. Two of China’s national banks have given Putin a slap down by limiting their ability to raise Russian capital. They will of course continue to trade with Russia but on their terms.

26-02-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696646#Comment_118696646

How does any of what you said make him a clown?

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696671#Comment_118696671

Agreement to think about it, not actually act, I'd be seriously sceptical they'll cut Russia off from Swift,the consequences for them are as bad as they are for Russia, I, of course could be wrong

Loafing Oaf · 26-02-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696646#Comment_118696646

The international community and I might add the dogs on the street saw this invasion coming, why weren't sanctions imposed long before Putin could act. Yet again World leaders have stood back , offering meaningless sound bites and here we go again.

Impose sanctions based on what you predict he's going to do?

I'm afraid the international community does not yet have access to this service

lulublue22 · 26-02-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696710#Comment_118696710

Was just going to post the exact question ! To call him a clown indicates that their was a better course of action he could have taken but didn’t. I’d be interested in the answer to that.

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696710#Comment_118696710

Do you seriously take him seriously 🤔, Seriously 🤔, I don't and Putin certainly doesn't.

MFPM · 26-02-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696548#Comment_118696548

Not sure how you got trolling from my post. I was making a factual point about the west and the realities of wars involving nuclear powers. I'm certainly not a Putin supporter, I abhor imperialism be it East or West.

Things will get very bad in the coming days as they always do when wars hit cities. There will be resistance even if kyiv falls - Putin will claim victory but like Bush and Blair before him it will be hollow.

26-02-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696736#Comment_118696736

Maybe you should post your opinion of him in the people you inexplicably dislike thread because you don't seem to be able to give a decent reason for calling him a clown.

Dempo1 · 26-02-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696717#Comment_118696717

Forgive me, did you miss the Military Build up over the past month 🤔

Have you missed his Track Record , Crimea, Georgia 🤔

I'm simply saying the dogs on the street saw this coming, what exactly had the international community got to loose by acting a month ago precisely 🤔

At a minimum it would have made Putins ambition more difficult to achieve

Brussels Sprout · 26-02-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696646#Comment_118696646

Putin in essence doent rate Zlenskyy's abilities in every respect

No, Putin couldn't control Zlenskyy. He wasn't some oligarch that could be manipulated. He was just some comedian who was bizarrely thrust into the highest office by an electorate who were sick of oligarchs and politicians.

The only thing that he could have done to avoid this invasion was roll over and give in to all of Putin's demands, which, by the way, would never have ended. Putin's only interested in Ukraine being a supplicant state, like Belarus is. Zlenskyy and the people of Ukraine weren't having that. This is the outcome.

It's easy to be cynical about how all of this plays out in the long run. I believe it is better instead to admire the determination of the people standing up for themselves rather than sneer at them and their leaders. Yes, they probably will lose this war, but let's not shít all over them while they're in the midst of fighting it.