Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Joedryan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719308#Comment_118719308

Absolutely agree

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720199#Comment_118720199

Maybe they can not afford to fly them now or even fuel them with all the sanctions that have effected Russia. Or maybe they are just holding them back for later and thought they would not need the airforce to take over Ukraine as they thought most of them would welcome them with open arms lol.

pjordan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720350#Comment_118720350

Fair enuff and accepted but I was using them to illustrate the relative insignifance of our military arsenal relative to what's needed. I'd say SF would be in a stronger position to send on much more from what's "decommissioned" in various bunkers around the country.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720293#Comment_118720293

Why use flour when we have flaming sods of turf 😆

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720199#Comment_118720199

If they dont need to be in the air, why waste fuel and take the risk from MANPADs?

There are reports of russian helicopters being used in the south though near Mariupol

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720675#Comment_118720675

Who says they dont need to be in the air, modern war experts seem confused as to why they arent in the air and they probably know more than we do on the best way to fight a war and an active airforce seems to be one of them.

Not having them flying cover and intercepting the drones might be whats slowing down any progress and advancement?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720695#Comment_118720695

Presumably if the Ukrainian air force still existed it would have bombed those convoys to hell already - aside from unconfirmed reports of Bayraktar strikes, no aerial strikes have been noted yet

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720695#Comment_118720695

Pure speculation to be clear but I'd guess shoulder SAMs is the most likely reason that have been flown in; as long as their forces are not being actively bombed by bomb planes etc. I'd guess they want to limit the risk of losing valuable (read expensive) planes to a random shoulder SAM totting person in a city. Remember Afghanistan only got 500 Stingers a year via CIA but that was enough to shoot down enough planes to get the Russians out in the end.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720713#Comment_118720713

If convoys were that simple to attack army's wouldn't use them. There has to be mobile SAMs on some of those trucks

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720713#Comment_118720713

There was a report of an aerial battle over Kiev earlier - I heard this mentioned on Sky at least once, but nothing since

Only link i can find

https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/03/02/russian-planes-kyiv/

"TWO Russian planes have been downed by Ukrainian fighters over Ukraine’s capital Kyiv, according to reports on Wednesday, March 2.

TRT World Now are reporting that a battle broke out between two Ukrainian MIG-29 fighters and two Russian planes over the capital causing the destruction of the Russian planes. Ukraine reportedly lost one fighter jet during the aerial combat.

Reports from the Kyiv region suggest that servicemen of the National Guard of Ukraine “skillfully” destroyed the Russian SU35 planes."

ODriscoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718103#Comment_118718103

All very true, as are similar comments about every nation having extremists of the left & right & supposed liberal variety.

But some are missing the point, or selectively choosing to.

The articles from the BBC to Reuters were pointing to a specific reality in Ukraine, long before the invasion!

Essentially not many supposed democratic Governments in Europe in the 21st century have 'openly' used if not actively encouraged far right extremists and incorporated into or alongside their national army! even fewer have allowed them to act with impunity as reported by credible impartial journalists.

Extreme far right that clearly do not typically represent the Ukranian people, but yet the government have allowed if not actively encouraged this & for years.

That's the point and what the independent journalists from the BBC, the telegraph, the Guardian, Reuters & others were specifically warning about for years.

The EU should have acted long before now, they chose to largely ignore the civil war on their doorstep! they knew about >February 26, 2019<

https://www.rferl.org/a/death-toll-up-to-13-000-in-ukraine-conflict-says-un-rights-office/29791647.html

bit late now by not putting basic standards on the government in Ukraine, they have effectively presented putin a known war enthusiast to cherry pick a plausible excuse for back home.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

Anyway yes all too late now, we have a extremely corrupt & hypocritical world in the East & the West and the N & S and now an actively extremely dangerous one that will likely have long term possibly extreme global consequences.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720764#Comment_118720764

Depends very much on the terrain. If the roads are narrow and bendy with cover at the sides (trees rocks etc) Then a side attack by groups of detemined attackers could halt a column. I wonder why they haven't tried this yet? They may have another plan.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720779#Comment_118720779

How exactly could the EU have acted on this ?

In fairness to Ukraine they are not like other countries because they were and have been under constant invasion since 2014. It doesn't excuse far right influence but doesn't excuse Putin's war either.

Brussels Sprout

• Kherson in the far south appears to have been taken but the Russians - that opens up the pathway to Odessa (the 3rd largest city) in the south-east
• On the other side of Crimea Mariupol is currently being pulverised by indiscriminate shelling of residential areas. The Russians tried and failed to seize that in 2014 - looks like they're trying to bomb them into submission. There was reports of thermobaric bombs being used there. When they inevitably take that city they will have complete control of the Sea of Azov coast and the land bridge from Russia to Crimea will be complete.
• Kharkiv in the North East is also being obliterated by shelling. I saw on the news last night that it looked like cluster bombs were being used there.

It's like a grim conveyor belt of misery and war crimes that's ultimately going to end up in Kiev.

I don't have any clever insights or silver linings. It's just horrifying.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720779#Comment_118720779

"The articles from the BBC to Reuters were pointing to a specific reality in Ukraine, long before the invasion!" - This was AFTER THE RUSSIANS occupied Crimea - and armed Separatists in the East of Ukraine - all of which was a prelude to this

the arming of separatist regions in East Ukraine was a deliberate attempt to destabilize the Ukraine - also your thesis hits a brick wall when we consider that the Russian speaking Ukrainians are fighting back also - im sorry but your conclusions are incorrect - if they were remotely plausible the entire Separatist regions would have united and the Front with Russia would have moved forward a long way by now -

the far right of the second map shows these regions - compare to current war map (from Sky News Live Feed)

you are factually inaccurate -

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720805#Comment_118720805

There are suggestions elsewhere online that the food and fuel shortages are deliberate sabotages by Russian soldiers to force a withdrawal or prevent an attack an Kyiv without expressly arguing against their orders.

Certainly even looking at a map, a couple of co-ordinated attacks on the column at specific pinch points could cause havoc.

Air attacks on something like this are suicide. A small column of vehicles a few hundred metres long, fine. On something this long, any aircraft would be incredibly vulnerable. After the initial attack and once your weapons are spent, you're a sitting duck to the next 2km of the convoy that have a clear shot on you.

Strafing runs are popular in war games like Call of Duty because of their devastating effect on ground targets, but in the real world they're very rarely done by planes anymore because of the proliferation of anti-aircraft weaponry.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720779#Comment_118720779

Your argument might hold more water, had this big "denazification" canard been Putin's consistent reason from the start of this sorry cycle. But it wasn't: we got some fluff about backing the independence surge from those 2 separatist regions in the East; how Russia was somehow morally obliged to respond to protect the (invented?) separatists from supposed Ukrainian reprisals (in a move eerily similar to Germany's own invention of aggression against German speakers in Poland, as the justification for invasion). Don't pretend that didn't happen, or ignore the transparent attempt to peddle any old bullshít, rather than admit this for the Land & Power Grab it is - while your reasoning smells a little too adjacent to victim blaming to be taken entirely seriously. However endemic Ukraine's dalliance with the Far Right might be, it's not a justification for the invasion (barring actual, provable war crimes).

If it wasn't nonsense about denazification, it would have been something. Putin wanted to invade so a reason was rustled up, then changed when solidarity with separatists wasn't going to cut it anymore. No doubt in a month's time it'll be something else again.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118698373#Comment_118698373

I'd imagine that once this is all done and dusted we'll be having a referendum on some sort of EU armed forces and some hard questions will need to be answered regarding how secure our neutrality really is.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720879#Comment_118720879

Could be. There are reports of the Russians running out of fuel and food.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720759#Comment_118720759

The stinger and other shoulder mounted weapons range is far shorter than the operating altitude of any of the Russian strike aircraft assuming they were using guided munitions and could attack from those altitudes. They're not using any guided bombs and are using dumb munitions and carpet bombing with dedicated bombers where accuracy isn't need and their aircraft can also stay far out of range.

So even if the Ukrainians aren't targeting the convoy, why aren't they targeting the bombers.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719120#Comment_118719120

He totally fucked it with this one. A number of things will come of this now and none of them good for Russia. China will now be able to bargain for gas at a greatly reduced rate, probably the cheapest on the planet since no one wants to touch Russia and if the regime isn't replace then that won't change. Another possibility is the collapse of Russia and the Chinese either take control of Siberia or pull a Russian stunt on the Russians and back a seperatist movement in the region (where the Chinese population is already increasing) and put in a puppet government, securing their access to the resources while European Russia reforms itself, whether that is with EU membership in mind would be up in the air, but they would certainly be starting from scratch after a collapse of this magnitude.

China just has to sit back, eat some popcorn and watch Russia implode. Dealing directly with them now will draw too much attention and bring possible sanctions, they literally have to do nothing.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719308#Comment_118719308

Ordinary Russians will not want to believe what their soldiers are doing in Ukraine and their media is absolutely not going to help them in learning the truth. In the meantime any independent voices are being taken off air or clamped down on. The BBC have a very informative piece on this today:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60571737

Here is what they said about the shelling Kharkiv yesterday on Russian TV:

But by the afternoon edition of the news, NTV finally mentions the news event that has dominated hours of coverage on the BBC by this stage - the shelling of the city of Kharkiv.

However, it debunks any reports that Russian forces are responsible, calling them "fake".

"Judging by the trajectory of the missile, the strike was delivered from the north-west where there are no Russian forces," the presenter says during the 16:00 Moscow time edition of the news. Four hours later, a bulletin by Rossiya 1 goes further, blaming Ukraine itself for the bombing.

"To strike Kharkiv and say that it was Russia. Ukraine is hitting its own and is lying to the West. But is it possible to deceive the people?" it asks.

Also, in case people might have been sent online content that conflicted with the official narrative that might have had them thinking twice:

The news bulletin suggests that reports about Ukrainian forces destroying Russian military hardware are false, designed to "mislead inexperienced viewers".

"Footage continues to be circulated on the internet which cannot be described as anything but fake," the presenter explains as the viewer is shown photographs of what is described as "unsophisticated virtual manipulations".

A large chunk of the population will want to believe the the comforting fantasy that it is the West who are the real bad guys and that the Russians are the real victims here. Russian media will enable those people to continue to believe their delusions.

Like the news in the West or anywhere, it really boils down to people's bias. If the news says the thing that you like and already agree with, you believe it. If it doesn't, you dismiss it or criticize the source (as some in this thread have done before).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721003#Comment_118721003

I agree to an extent I mean people who wanted to believe the WMD story did and same with stories like refugee/immigrants in Europe.

But come on who except the wildest conspiracy theorists would believe Ukraine would level its own cities

liamtech

I assume we are watching the UN - The Russian representative has asked for the UN Reps to vota against Ukraine because

-Ukrainian Nationalists are holding the population of cities 'Hostage'

-Using civilians as Human Shields

Utterly disgusting now - devolved into absolute lies and apologetic nonsense

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720805#Comment_118720805

Might be limited bendy roads and cover in that part of the country?

I would also assume that the Russians have air cover with thermal imaging for a convoy of that size.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721041#Comment_118721041

Have you ever encountered a proper Trump fanatic? They still think Trump is going to arrest Biden and be reinstated. I'm sure Russia has its fair share of Putin fanatics.

Gatling

I wonder what Russia classes inexperienced tv viewers as

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721055#Comment_118721055

Ya probably right about the US but it like Russia is a bit nuts. But I wouldn't say "the West or anywhere" as I don't see that level of nonsense being believed in most of the EU for instance.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721043#Comment_118721043

Again, same kind of propaganda Israel uses. Ultimately people are people. Nobody wants to support murderous regimes, nobody wants to think their government is cold and inhumane.

So governments need to lie, to at least provide a semblance of cover. These lies aren't for our benefit. They don't really think NATO is going to buy these excuses.

The lies are for their own populations. So that Russians can go to bed and sleep soundly knowing that while there may be bad things happening in Ukraine, their armed forces are fighting with the best of intentions and for the liberation of innocents.