Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Podge_irl · 02-03-2022 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721939#Comment_118721939

I mean, we could use the example in front of us. If Poland unilaterally engaged with the Ukraine conflict then whether NATO would get involved becomes very tricky. Obviously if Russian engages with Polish forces on Ukrainian soil then the answer would almost definitely be no. If Russia then engages on Polish soil it becomes more complicated.

The idea of the article is to defend against (basically Soviet) aggression though. "starting" a conflict than claiming defence when hit back is a much more complicated scenario. For what its worth the article itself is below and absolutely doesn't cover this scenario with complete clarity. So then it becomes a political question - but it would not be a default reaction.

"“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

topmanamillion · 02-03-2022 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721710#Comment_118721710

You cannot bet on that. The Germans in particular have a well known history of being the aggressor which still influence their political and military decisions today.

An attack on a baltic country is as likely to lead to the Germans and French doubling down on their own defenses as run to the defence of another European country. The US (by far the largest military budget in the world) are vital to NATO functioning properly. The fact their "obligation" under article 5 is entirely at the mercy of the US president of the day is surely a weakness in NATO.

The fact Trump spoke about NATO with distain and talked about pulling the US out of shows just how fragile the whole thing is. If Ukraine had happened during his presidency a couple of years ago this could all be much grimmer.

liamtech · 02-03-2022 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722191#Comment_118722191

I think you and i are preaching from the same prayer book, but we are on different pages? I suspect we agree so i want to clarify my position.

Obviously emotions are high and this is a terrible situation, and the obvious question is being asked time and time again. Why cant the west/Nato/The US get involved

The debate on what would happen if one NATO member acted unilaterally is interesting, and i tend to stand by my stance that it would inevitably involve NATO - That said, if the fighting remained outside NATO territory - That is an interesting question - Russia's reaction would determine what could/should happen. If they consider it a NATO involvement, then there would technically be no triggering of A5 - it would simply be NATO V Russia - if they didnt, who knows - its grey but almost certainly it would lead to an escalation - there is ambiguity for sure

The fact is - we both know that under no circumstance will a Nato member state intervene in this conflict - It is simply too risky. The above hypothetical's are interesting thought experiments - but that is all they are. My posts were to try and make clear that sadly, the West/NATO will undoubtedly remain as it is. and will not intervene. Clandestine assistance is possible but we arent there yet

Danzy · 02-03-2022 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721710#Comment_118721710

The French army is world class, and lots of experience, in a European context, just behind the English army.

The German army was considered excellent 30 years ago, now it is run down and barely able to function as an army in barracks, never mind as a combat force.

It's not able to fully participate in excersises due to lack of equipment, breakdowns, infrastructure ie bridges not able to have tanks drive over etc etc.

02-03-2022 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722234#Comment_118722234

No normal president would pull out though.

The reason Trump wanted to pull out is the same reason he called Putin's invasion "genius" and is the same reason why Trump never criticised Putin.

I mean, that reason is unknown, but it does exist...

The Golden Miller · 02-03-2022 9:55pm

I don't believe this is something Russia want to do, or like doing, but the West has forced their hand, and Ukraine are the unfortunate pawns in the middle

odyssey06 · 02-03-2022 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722557#Comment_118722557

Russia wanted a vassal Ukraine not a pro Western Ukraine. The Ukranian people in the Maidan revolution chose a Western course. Putin thought he could get Ukraine through bribes, stooges, corruption etc without firing a shot. So no they didnt want to invade, and then they thought they could stage a coup.

Putin basicaly said Ukraine isnt a country, it is a Russian province. That is a pawn alright. Say like Belarus.

By contrast the EU wants to see a free and strong Ukraine as a valued member. Say like Poland.

The West forced their hand because every country given the free choice does not choose Russia.

Spot the difference?

The Golden Miller · 02-03-2022 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722631#Comment_118722631

The West has been creeping closer to Russia's door for a long time now, as Russia said ok and watched, arming NATO countries. They want to back Russia into a corner and land on their doorstep, showing them up as weak if the don't respond.

If they don't respond, it's an acknowledgement America can do as they please around the world, with that buffer of Russia gone. If they do respond they're the bad guys. This is a situation that has been building for years and the West forced it.

Ukraine are the unfortunate pawns in the middle, but Russia have to do this, and they don't want to, but no choice left

The Golden Miller · 02-03-2022 10:13pm

I genuinely believe Russia hate doing this

liamtech · 02-03-2022 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722557#Comment_118722557

Would you care to explain that rather odd opinion?

-How has the Ukraine been used as a Pawn

-Given that this took months to plan, and arguably began in 2014, how do you not 'believe this is something Russia want to do'

-How exactly has 'the West has forced their hand' - assuming 'their' is Russia/Putin

-How do you feel posting in favor of a large militarily powerful dictatorship, invading a small neighboring state - and calling their Jewish President a 'Nazi'

-Do you genuinely believe that you can convince people of any of the above (assuming you reply and address the questions)

-Do you genuinely believe your main thesis (that Russia has had 'her hand forced' and that in effect the West is to blame for this Russian Invasion)

02-03-2022 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722675#Comment_118722675

Ah, you pushed it too far, buddy.

odyssey06 · 02-03-2022 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722665#Comment_118722665

Rubbish. If NATO hadnt expanded to protect the former Soviet bloc countries they would already be subject to the oppression of Putins new Russian empire.

NATO isnt going to invade Russia. It has zero interest. Russia is a huge country. There is no corner to back it into. It doesnt need a buffer it has 6000 nukes.

Read your master Putins speech from last week and his plan for Ukraine. This is nothing to do with NATO it is about Ukraine is Russian vassal or free. That is just a pretext for propagandists to regurgitate. And look there you are.

The Golden Miller · 02-03-2022 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722699#Comment_118722699

I'm serious, there is so much intertwinment there, why would they want to hurt Ukraine or their people?

The Golden Miller · 02-03-2022 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722688#Comment_118722688

Yes I do believe it. I'll respond tomorrow properly as I'm on the phone right now

liamtech · 02-03-2022 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722714#Comment_118722714

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722675#Comment_118722675

Because Vladimir Putin wants to reconstitute a New Russian Empire - this has to be trolling at this stage -

pixelburp · 02-03-2022 10:23pm

The only thing Russia might hate is how much of a balls they have made of everything. Both the invasion and of the ability to control the narrative. Putin presumed the West was riven by disunity and cultural disharmony that nobody would care: instead it has been a rallying cry showing Brexit was far from the thin end of the wedge many predicted within the EU. And while it remains a matter of numbers, the military advance has been beset by ineptitude, bad logistics and a completely underestimated opponent.

They had no cause, no justification to invade; they might have got away with sticking to those separatist regions - but Putin for greedy and power hungry

iamwhoiam · 02-03-2022 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722675#Comment_118722675

Not as much as the women carrying their children for miles to safety

Not as much as Ukrainian men putting children on trains not knowing if they will ever see them again

Not as much a people having to leave everything they own behind

Not as much as people leaving their sick and elderly behind because they cant travel .

Not as much as waking up to bombs hitting your home , the hospital or the school

Not as much as people crossing into a strange country and completely reliant on strangers to help them

Not as much as nurses having to carry children with cancer into basements and parents knowing they cant get the chemo they need

Not as much as the huge numbers of volunteers trying to feed and keep thousands warm .

So dont write that shoite .

patnor1011 · 02-03-2022 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118712760#Comment_118712760

If only 10% of your crystal ball "out of storage" number will be used it will be end of the world anyway. You forget that world is littered with nuclear powerplants and spent fuel storage sites. In case of attack most of them will start to go in meltdown as stopping nuclear powerplant is quite complicated process.

Most of the people calling for or speculating about "limited" nuclear attack should stop playing video games. There is no reload after failed mission in the real life.

breezy1985 · 02-03-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722339#Comment_118722339

So how will an EU army run by both those countries be better ?

Danzy · 02-03-2022 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722881#Comment_118722881

The French have a serious army, the Germans had, one paid the other stopped. If the will is there..

AMKC · 02-03-2022 11:08pm

I have to say I don't care what people think of Joe Biden I think he is one cool dude and he was looking great today with his sunclasses on out in the sun. I think the presidency is good for him and he looks healthier than he has ever been.

Larbre34 · 02-03-2022 11:18pm

Biden was always cool. How can a man who collects Corvettes be anything but cool. And he has a cool wife and a cool family.

But, he is now too old to withstand the relentless pressures of the biggest combined crises at home and abroad in the last 100 years.

Saladin Ane · 02-03-2022 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722997#Comment_118722997

Is that a parship-sized one you just rolled?😁

AMKC · 02-03-2022 11:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723055#Comment_118723055

Lol

AMKC · 02-03-2022 11:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722971#Comment_118722971

Why did they stop? Was it because after unification that need for the army was not there anymore and that the west were not fully funding it now? They had to pay for it out of there own pocket and they had far more pressing issues to solve like reuniting and rebuilding the East of there country with the West. Was that it?

Capt'n Midnight · 02-03-2022 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721467#Comment_118721467

FYI Rossiya24 still on satellite. Hotbird 13E 11034 V 27500 3/4 QPSK DVB-S

It's very yellow. Tourist scenes on loop and I'd swear he said "Ruski Diaspora"

oops..

Danzy · 02-03-2022 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723105#Comment_118723105

America paid for it, Germany stopped paying for a lot of things in the 90s. It's Why Much of its vital infrastructure is falling apart, why its internet provision shocks people from the 3rd world, why a fax is essential in a German office.

They ultimately are short changing themselves.