Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736876#Comment_118736876

Yes, it investigates torture on BOTH sides in the conflict prior to invasion as I stated.

If you believe mistreatment on BOTH sides has magically stopped in the wake of the invasion you may need to check you bullshit metre.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736912#Comment_118736912

How rude . I mentioned nothing about believing anything actually

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736876#Comment_118736876

From your cited article

"The conflict in Ukraine's eastern industrial heartland called the Donbas erupted in April 2014 weeks after Russias annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula that followed the ouster of the country's former Moscow-leaning president"

"Russia-backed separatists took control of large areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, established the so-called ‘people’s republics' and fought the government forces attempting to reclaim control."

"It said in the report that both sides used secret detention facilities immune from any prosecutorial oversight or access by rights monitors. The government side stopped using them in 2017 but the separatists continue to hold prisoners incommunicado, denying access to their relatives and monitors to that moment, the OHCHR said."

Here is a timeline FYI

• Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea: Simultaneously to this, Russia arm separatists, who then duly announced themselves as Break away states -2014
• Russia decry the conflict, which they started, for 8 years. Despite being solely responsible for it, they lay the ground for a larger War. They begin a propaganda campaign citing the Ukrainians as NAZIS 2014- present
• A conflict does indeed take place (and you have cited this). Crimes committed by both sides - YES - 2014-present
• From your cited article: in relation to Anti-separatist forces in 2017: 'The (Ukrainian) government side stopped using them in 2017' - the Ukrainians were actively trying to de-escalate a limited regional conflict. 2017
• Putin pens an essay in which he argues against the idea of the Ukraine as an independent state (see link below) 2021
• Russia builds up a large conventional army on the borders of Ukraine, Feb 2022
• Break away states recognized by Russia -Feb 2022
• Said break away states, 'appeal for Moscow to intervene' Feb 2022
• Russia Invades the Ukraine. Does it invade only in the separatists regions as requested?? NO – they invade on several fronts into the territory of the Ukraine, attacking its capital, and other cities. Feb 2022

So i ask you in all honesty

• Who is responsible for this war?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-new-ukraine-essay-reflects-imperial-ambitions/

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736871#Comment_118736871

Of course Ukraine has everything to gain by showing captured Russians being treated well.

All armies portray enemies being treated well to encourage surrender. Just because videos of captured Russians being given tea and buns have been distributed by Ukraine doesn’t mean the mistreatment of prisoners is not occurring.

Think rationality about this conflict. There are convicted criminals being released to fight on both sides. Citizens with NO experience of combat or the rules of war are being armed and are fighting. Foreign fighters and individuals with no vetting, training or knowledge of rules of war are involved in the fighting.

Believe what you want but wartime is not the time to suspend all scepticism and cynicism.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736990#Comment_118736990

Why are you asking me this ? I didnt post the link to that article ? All i did was note the date it was published ?

I expressed no opinion either way about soldiers treatment ?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736990#Comment_118736990

In all honesty?

Putin started this war. That’s a fact.

Why type all the above? Both sides have mistreated and tortured prisoners during the conflict. There is no reason to believe that has stopped.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737040#Comment_118737040

Apologies - misdirected at the wrong user- have attempted to remove your @ from it but seemingly will not let me - Genuine apologies i hope we can chalk this down to 'Friendly Fire' metaphorically speaking - happy to have the @ quote removed by mods of course

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737052#Comment_118737052

i typed it because of what i view as repeated 'false equivalencies' - by that i mean words to the effect of 'Oh they are both as bad as the other' - THEY AREN'T

They simply are not: And i am arguing and citing evidence to demonstrate that this is not the case -

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737099#Comment_118737099

No problem at all . It was a genuine mistake

marno21

https://twitter.com/alt_localgov/status/1500121638158753795

Sitting at a table with a load of flight attendants today explaining what’s going on in Ukraine.

The “fear of Covid” and the need for the long table seem to have abated

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737138#Comment_118737138

I think what the tweeter is getting at is,

https://twitter.com/alt_localgov/status/1500121642168565763

Its hopeful thinking - but i admit - fingers crossed

The more we see the Russian Federation morph into a Neo Russian Empire - the more i fear this may be the only way to end it

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737099#Comment_118737099

It’s not a false equivalence to state that both sides in the initial conflict have mistreated prisoners.

You have not cited evidence that Russian prisoners have not been mistreated.

What you have cited is Ukrainian filmed propaganda videos of Russian prisoners being treated well.

I am not comparing the behavior of the Russian and Ukrainian military.

I do however believe it is naive to believe all captured Russian soldiers are being treated to tea and buns because you have sen some videos on Twitter.

Brussels Sprout

"Has Ukraine not stated that they will no longer take artillery units prisoner because of indiscriminate shelling of civilian targets?"

I saw the Kyiv Independent tweet this quote out a few days ago. It stuck in my memory specifically because it struck me as a rare PR own-goal by the Ukrainians.

Now it's perfectly understandable that they would wish harm on the Russians most responsible for the indiscriminate killing of Ukrainian civilians (Russian artillery) but it struck me as odd that they would come out and say it given that they have been so PR savvy elsewhere.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118734769#Comment_118734769

Yes the support to Ukraine is more important right now. The sanctions impact on Russia is mostly for the future depending on outcome of this war. If Putin succeeds however, sanctions will need to become permanent, and harden. You are also right there's not much that can be done to punish Russia directly, but given you appeared to think current sanctions, or further cutting off trade are too much, what should be done then? Nothing at all apart from aid for Ukraine? It just seems odd, doing one, while economic activity between Russia and the West mostly carries on, including trade in lots of dual use stuff that can assist the Russian military and just the pure inflows of foreign currency that can help Russia keep the war going.

Also there is, while not "dependence" by the EU, very strong connections that now can't be cut quickly without alot of damage. All these connections built up since end of Cold War haven't prevented Russia/Putin starting an old-style war to conquer a neighbour + sending refugees fleeing into the EU despite your claim that increasing such connections should bring us peace and cooperation & make war impossible. If war happened anyway was there just not enough connections and trade with Russia to make it impossible? I don't believe so, and something else caused this war (the desires and fears of Putin/Russian govt. quite unrelated to trade and cooperation with neighbours).

Hate to be depressing but there's a chance most of the Russian people (or enough of them) will think exactly as Putin tells them to about the "West"/US/EU and Ukraine war etc. or else they will keep good and quiet out of self preservation. It doesn't really matter what we do or say, sanctions or no sanctions. You seem to believe that the West should be trying to win a sort of propaganda war for hearts and minds inside Russia with Putin and his regime and sanctions should not be too hard because of that goal. That may be a bit arrogant. Winning such a war is likely impossible. I mean the West for all its media/cultural strength etc. can't even have a complete victory in a propaganda war with Russia on it's own turf. Trump support in the US, Brexit in UK where Russia had thumbs on the scales, legions of very noisy and disruptive + troublesome dolts erupting during pandemic, getting many good talking points from Russian & Chinese disinfo sown and disseminated to cripple the Western pandemic response, even look at all the garbage posted daily in support of Putin and Russian pov on this website or elsewhere on internet. Alot of that is real, probably some Irish people with some strange and wonderful ideas + beliefs obtained from...ooh...I wonder...?

The "escalation" between Western Europe/Russia etc. is not a good thing. It's an awful waste. I still expect if Russia wants to do an arms race, especially from an economically weakened position it will lose. It is not the Soviet Union. As regards us suffering in the West from sanctions or these increased military budgets etc. unfortunately that may be inevitable. Thank Putin/Russia for that. "We've" had it fairly good for quite a long time (especially our elites) since end of Cold War, but that may be coming to an end for a protracted period. Not paying for it is going to be far more expensive. I think Putin will have demonstrated that clearly if he succceds, may have demonstrated it already.

If China (CCP) really wishes to be Russia's saviour and bust all the Western sanctions best of luck to them, will show up their nature, accelerate a proper cut off from them too. There will have to be secondary sanctions if Putin is successful & they are just flagrantly helping Russia arm up again + beat any Western sanctions while it is committing atrocities in Ukraine.

The West did not "ignore" Russia's economic crisis from what I remember reading about it. I think a big (largest ever at that time?) World Bank / IMF plan was organised wasn't it? I wonder where alot of that bail-out money ended up going! Maybe the Western policies towards Russia were bad/self interested, or perhaps the US/West did not intervene enough from a position of strength to try and shape events more during and then post collapse of Soviet Union so that democracy, rule of law, freedom etc got embedded but in the end I think there is really only so much the US/West could or can do to "fix" Russia somehow or make it more like itself.

I think very few in Western Europe are "delighted" with this, not a nice though. The military/defence/security type people (or NATO?) may be feeling justified (know little about that, but seeing as their job is to warn of threats in general, they've probably been shouting about Putin/Russia for years). They will be glad/relieved more money will be spent on them in Europe and attention paid. The weapons/equipment manufactures who kit out the European militaries may be only ones in the West secretly delighted (if they lack scruples)!

Sorry...I feel I wrote far, far too much in reply there I suppose but was alot in your long post to respond to/think about.

Capt'n Midnight

CNN reporting the Israeli PM is talking to Putin. And that's with the consent of the US and gas is now £3.92/US gallon. (€1.06/L)

liamtech

the Mask Slips

https://thehill.com/policy/international/596997-putin-warns-ukraine-might-lose-statehood-if-they-continue-doing-what

So the choice is:

• Fight for the freedom, sovereignty, and democracy of your country. And you might lose your country
• Surrender, and we (might) let you keep your country (which will be defenseless at that point)

Military Speculation:

Do we generally believe now, that the strategy of the Ukrainians, will mirror the defenders of Stalingrad? As in, that they allow the Russians to enter the city, and fight them in terrain 'not ideal' to Tank Warfare?

Remember that when the Tanks enter; Russian Artillery is effectively useless - granted they have missiles and some precision munitions. But in terms of leveling the city, should the Russians chose to do so. They will only make it nearly impossible to full occupy. Plenty of historical precedents for this, and for the difficulty of Urban War: Stalingrad, Berlin, Kursk, The Warsaw Uprising, et al.

What about a Ukrainian withdrawal from the city? Possible fall back to Lviv, which seems an obvious place for War time national redoubt

Im not a military person beyond reading many books on the topic. This whole situation is terrifying at this point. If the mods prefer i not bring up the above, i will refrain from doing so. If this is the case, is there somewhere we could be recommended to even discuss this topic? Somewhere aside from the 'other' thread?

Thanks in advance. Slava Ukraini

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737507#Comment_118737507

To summarise, your point is "we should punish Russia as much as possible".

To summarise, my point is that punishing Russia is ultimately going to lead to war.

As much as you want to try to parse and misphrase my points (for example, even though you knew I was talking about NATO, as I said as such, you tried to suggest I was making a point about people in Western Europe), the above is the fundamental disagreement between us.

As much as you may not like it, the EU and the USA fundamentally recognise that at the end of the day they still have to engage with Russia.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737589#Comment_118737589

This is such an incredibly stupid thing to say by Putin. Talk about giving motivation to the Ukrainians to continue to fight. Ending up as a client state of Russia would have been bad enough but being a part of the Russian Federation would be even worse again.

One of the silver linings in this entire horrible series of events is that it has put to bed once and for all the myth that Putin was some kind of geopolitical genius. I think it's clear to see now that, he's nothing but a thug who uses threats and brutality to get what he wants. That got him a long way but it's not working now and he clearly doesn't have any other tools to deal with this situation. Bill Browder said in a podcast last week that Putin can never show weakness and always has to double down. That's fine as a strategy if you're dealing with opponents who are far too small to really hurt you (Chechnya, Georgia, the Syrian rebels, Navalny) but it's a different matter now. He's played his hand recklessly and he's being found out.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737643#Comment_118737643

Assuming you dont mean 'Militarily' punishing russia, will lead to war. I would actually (sadly) agree with you on that one.

Do you think further sanctions would/could lead to war? I would be interested to hear what you think on this. I cannot say i would agree. Sanctions are basically the west saying they aren't interested in doing business with Moscow anymore. Which is their right?

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737691#Comment_118737691

100% agreed - when Switzerland decides to sanction you (given the fact they were dealing with NAZI Germany right up to the end of WW2) - you really should take stock of the situation, and ask. Have i gone too far!?

Brussels Sprout

Reports coming out of explosions in Belgorod. That's a Russian city, 40km from the border with Ukraine. I don't recall anything like that happening on Russian soil so far during this Invasion. All of the fighting has been confined to within the borders of Ukraine.

A few possibilities:

1. Ukrainians have spies in there who have set off bombs in an act of revenge
2. Ukrainians have bombed the city either by air or through artillery
3. An accidental explosion has occurred at an ammunition dump
4. The Russians have drummed something up themselves in order to generate fear and therefore support for their actions in Ukraine (Putin has history with this tactic - allegedly)

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500179361680576512

liamtech

'An accidental explosion has occurred at an ammunition dump' - id be pointing at this as the most likely. Not surprising at all. I want to avoid link dumps but elsewhere, iv seen evidence that Russian Incompetence is alive and well.

As to whether the Russians decide to blame Kiev - thats open for debate and is possible. I will not believe any Russian claims to that effect unless strongly verified by Western sources - at this point if the Kremlin tell me it will rain tomorrow. I wouldnt even bother checking the forecast, id just assume a dry day.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737138#Comment_118737138

It's the headline story on Rossiya 24 , later on there'll be a report on a captured depot

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737589#Comment_118737589

Possibly, the humanitarian corridors will be used as an excuse. The Russians will say they allowed the civilians to leave, and so anyone who remained is presumed to be hostile. This will be used as an excuse to level bulidings and to shoot on sight.

What's with Putin at the big table.with all the ladies? Who are they and why is he telling them the west are declaring war?

They look like schoolgirls

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737156#Comment_118737156

Apart from the fact that he wasn't anywhere...

https://twitter.com/AlexKhrebet/status/1500170161726369799?t=esT68LOlv5BqaQM6R9URoQ&s=19

It's a deep fake. We're in a 1984 situation lads. Russian regime propaganda is lies lies and more lies.

We've essentially North Korean regime in Europe...

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737840#Comment_118737840

When you have to cite Jimmy Dore as a source, you are really scraping the bucket. The man is not credible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im6lBqMejFE

When he left TYT (not a fan btw) - he basically fell apart. Thinks he is being surveilled by the USIC

Is this an unforeseen consequence of RT being gone?

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737935#Comment_118737935

What is this supposed to show?

handlemaster

Is it not time to call the bluff and Europe to just bomb this Russian army in Ukraine. Its no going to end here . He has already threatened our EU partners Sweden and Finland a out joining Nato

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118737774#Comment_118737774

I think Ukraine hit a Russian airbase within Russia with a missile last week.

liamtech

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/shell-buys-russian-oil-at-bargain-price-2ZljvO2HQlmPm5d5aAgG

Might sound like Keyboard Warrior type stuff - but really hoping they get crucified for this

a DISGRACE