Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

corkie

@liamtech Thanks!

Was debating about a reply to that post. But you answered better than I could. Plus the adage 'Don't feed .....' came to mind.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753469#Comment_118753469

Capt'n Midnight

Ukraine TV showing more about the war than Russian TV is

A lot of other reports show the movement along the coast towards Crimea rather than out from it.

Figures are inflated because everyone does this

This was shown too

Lots of destroyed vehicles shown and dead Russians. Patriotic montages of images of Ukraine, lots of interviews with refugees and those determined to stay on.

Still no mention of the embassy gates.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753469#Comment_118753469

The Irish only mentioned it when they saw the potential social media fawning they could get after seeing it happen in the UK. I can imagine it now....."an incredible moment in the Dail today as the whole house rose to their feet to applaud the Ukrainian president" and all the Irish will feel great while Ukrainians get slaughtered. I wouldn't give Ireland the honour of speaking anyways considering we wouldn't even back them with weapons.

Great. Put me on ignore and anyone else who doesn't like my posts. Thanks!

Stop trying to get me banned. I know you're be spamming the report button too.

I don't get my kicks from getting a rise out of randomers online.

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118751834#Comment_118751834

Well, take WWII as an example. Nobody said "oh we better not make Hitler mad, best not isolate him". Germany got completely decimated and laid waste.

And it had to happen! Russia in it's current form must be isolated. Once the Putin regime is gone and the country comes to it's senses, countries would be delighted to deal with them again.

Manach

From this country's experience in the 1930s, sanctions are closely aligned with and often called an economic war. In more recent times, US sanctions brought Iran to the bargaining table to discuss its nuclear weapons (ref book "Treasury War"). Saying that, after the 1917 revolution Western assets were seized by the Bolcheiviks and within a decade companies were queuing up to re-enter that market.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753901#Comment_118753901

Did you read my reply? The one you quoted........the one that states clearly I was talking about the aftermath....which was also fairly clear in the first post of mine you responded to......given the historical context....cutting off is fine now, might not be a good idea long term imo.

I'm sticking to my guns in any event, when this is over the worst course of action imo would be to cut Russia off entirely, it just leaves it wide open for another loon or cabal of thugs to take over an impoverished populace.....

Capt'n Midnight

Over on Russian TV history of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and historical films.

Interesting maps

Has Ukraine been split in two ?

Nuclear and dirty bombs ? Nope , that was old news, we are now on bio-weapons.

And the neighbours are at it too

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753918#Comment_118753918

During the Irish economic war with Britain the slogan was Burn everything British except their coal”.

The “crippling sanctions” against Russia sees Russian cats and dogs being banned from competitions, Russian music banned from opera houses all while the EU IS importing €1 billion a day in oil and gas from Russia.

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753944#Comment_118753944

Ok, we are actually in agreement in that case. Of course it would be wrong to isolate Russia afterwards

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754017#Comment_118754017

And grounding their air fleet... turning away ships.. seizing assets... freezing reserves... crippling their ability to replace lost military hardware.

Did Dev do any of that?

How would you suggest Latvia or Romanis say could get through the next month without Russian gas?

Slideways

I saw on a YouTube aviation channel that of the 900 odd aircraft in Russian commercial aviation approx 500 are leased and have to be returned by end of March.

According to rumour it has been suggested Russia intends on nationalising these. This would be a hugely consequential decision with only very short term gain for them

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754152#Comment_118754152

Huge number of them owned by irish lease companies

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754152#Comment_118754152

Especially as China are the real owners of most of them albeit using front (inc Irish) companies. Plus they would be locked out of parts... updates... manuals and couldnt fly them outside Russia or its vassals.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118753981#Comment_118753981

I am finding it emotional watching Ukraina24 on hotbird. I jump over to it regularly now - Its most reassuring to see it still broadcasting

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754066#Comment_118754066

Your missing the point.

It’s all fine and dandy taking actions that will have no material effect on the rest of us to help Ukraine.

Send hundreds of millions worth of weapons, seize some billionaires yachts, close Starbucks, leave one star Google reviews on Russian businesses etc.

However when it comes to EU government’s allowing their citizens to feel the pain that seems to be a bridge too far.

In the Irish economic war with Britain we took a lot of pain. Our economy shrank and real incomes, especially farm incomes plummeted.

Western politicians can’t or won’t let that happen. Which makes me think the resolve of Russia to win this war is greater than the wests resolve to defeat them.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754530#Comment_118754530

I really dont know what point you are trying to make. Why do all of your points come across as insidiously pro Russian?

I pointed out the vast differences between Irelands puny sanctions in the 30s and the EU.

Can you explain how Germany or Latvia makes it through the next month without Russian gas? How does it help Ukraine if Germanys economy crashes? Or Latvia freezes? The effect of cutting off gas instantly would dwarf what happened Ireland in 30s. There is simply no comparison.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754566#Comment_118754566

As long as people are clear on the limits of the EU commitment to Ukraine. That’s the point.

We will do everything we can as long as it doesn’t inconvenience us.

Compare that with the willingness of Russia to take thousands of casualties, crash their economy, destroy carefully nurtured diplomatic capital and risk their government being overthrown.

Also it is tiresome for posters to dismiss everyone who questions the reaction to the war as pro Russian. It is a means of stifling debate.

I didn’t believe Russia would invade Ukraine. I think it is a horrendous waste of life and resources.

However the media portraying Putin as a madman, insane etc is pathetic. During a war of course the narrative tends to be black and white, good vs evil but citizens of a neutral country such as Ireland deserve a more informed, nuanced analysis of why we got to a state of war in Ukraine in 2022.

Eamon Dunphy’s podcast The Stand’s latest episode is titled “War in Ukraine - On The Front Between Barbarism and Civilisation.”

The war is certainly barbaric but this smacks more of a Third Reich Untermenschen propaganda title than an Irish podcast on a European conflict.

Such a title would never be used in a conflict with a Muslim country or a developing country because it would be perceived to be colonial and racist.

liamtech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j06nt7cofR8

For those following the Military Situation. Ed Nash provides an analysis up to date as of today. Ed is the Military and Aviation Expert i posted from earlier in this thread (he did the analysis on what/where/how former Warsaw pact countries were to supply old aircraft to the Ukrainians)

Its a fairly in dept analysis - iv been through it twice -

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118750148#Comment_118750148

It's a bit Putin bot of you and I don't think you are.

You are just probably repeating tropes that their people put out.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754901#Comment_118754901

I don't understand what you mean?

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754783#Comment_118754783

terrible take on things. The narrative is fairly black and white here. Russia  started a war   where he and his forces are killing men, women and children. He and his forces are bombing civilian targets, hospitals, schools and humanitarian corridors. Don´t be such a quisling for Russian horrors. how do you want it to be portrayed?

the reaction to the war . do you hear yourself? its reaction to Russian aggression and war crimes as well as threatening nuclear war . ffs. apologists like yourself need a good dose of **** reality. its people like yourself who would be happily running around in a vichy government

Quin_Dub

The Bio-weapons things is a gift to Russia from QANON, InfoWars and the other Basement dwelling loons in the US.

Across the various dark corners of the Internet where they gather the conspiracy theory is that Ukraine was hosting US Bio-weapon labs and of course there's a good bit of "Hunter Biden" and "Biden Crime Family" guff thrown in as well.

amandstu

The Americans have refused to go along with the Polish idea of providing the Ukranians with planes for use on their territory.

People seemed to be going along with this idea up to now

Was it always a no starter or is there any way the idea can be resurrected in any form ?

xper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754783#Comment_118754783

The point you’ve made is absolute nonsense. You portray EU action as amounting to pet show bans and Putin’s lack of anticipation of the west’s sanctions response or ability to prevent it as a determination to be admired. Rather one side is acting in a rational manner to protect its own citizens and those of a cruelly attacked neighbour while the other has set out on a self-aggrandising delusional and unjustifiable war.

You might actually think you’re presenting a balanced view but you’re not. You might think there is virtue in being neutral in this conflict, there isn’t.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755555#Comment_118755555

Iv sensed some sort of turn around internally in the US.

• Poland officially announced they would do it
• US had green lit this situation/deal
• US reversed course and acted 'surprised'
• Deal off

It was green lit then called off, in effect, by the US. It could have been internal Political Machinations, OR as a result of Russian Back-channeling that they would view this as escalatory.

Either way, if we include the EU offer from 10 odd days ago, this deal has been. ON, off, ON, off - Below is a list of conflicting reports from start to finish. IMHO, this 'jet fighter' fiasco, is just that. A fiasco, from start to finish.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-02-26/card/eu-member-countries-will-supply-ukraine-with-jet-fighters-borrell-says-zjCJ5iME2keSkxfiaIpr

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-promise-to-supply-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-gets-grounded/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-nato-fighter-jets-antony-blinken-face-the-nation/

https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/statement-of-the-minister-of-foreign-affairs-of-the-republic-of-poland-in-connection-with-the-statement-by-the-us-secretary-of-state-on-providing-airplanes-to-ukraine

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/08/poland-transfers-mig-fighters-to-the-us-as-ukraine-asks-for-help-00015259

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755487#Comment_118755487

Excellent rebuttals there! So a war started out of the blue. Only the Russians have bombed civilians and only Ukrainian men, women and children have been killed. Russia is clearly the aggressor but I think it is being oversimplified.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755688#Comment_118755688

Absolute diversionary whataboutism.

The Russians have no excuses for this, stop trying to twist things to give them one

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755688#Comment_118755688

Russia is the aggressor here, and whatever internal issues Ukraine can be claimed to have, none of them can justify an intentional invasion and attempt to overthrow a government by a foreign force. It's simply not a position one can take as a serious, Good Faith point of view IMO; it's not enough to say something is 'oversimplified' when the issue in the here and now is a clear, existential crisis for Ukraine as a sovereign entity. There are of course circumstances that can legitimatise an invasion, they do exist - but this is not one of them.

Let's not forget here, dial things back a few weeks and the Russia incursion was supposed to be some kind of peacekeeping action of solidarity with two breakaway provinces within Ukraine; regions apparently yearning to be Russian. Whither that noble cause? None of Russia's subsequent words or actions tally with this original, publicly declared plan. Suddenly it's blather about denazification to justify a wholesale regime change and borderline Total War strategy against the whole country.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755620#Comment_118755620

Maybe these possible planes were just as a threat or a signal to the Russians so as to sow doubt in their minds.

Their convoy seemed very exposed and false signals might have been used to slow its progress and buy a little time for Kiev

And Moscow could hardly agree to their deployment either.They would have to use the threat of escalation.

Also ,I wonder is Belarus equally caught up in the sanctions?Are they being offered any off ramp?

How stable is their regime at present?

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755688#Comment_118755688

ok we get it you are an apologist for Putin. Russia invaded in 2014 as well basically and has interfered with Ukranian sovereignty and you are victim blaming . there is no over simplification, only some simpletons doing Putins work for him.