Selling a property without Planning Permission

GreenGrass2019

Hi

If the original Planning Permission granted on a property cannot be located via the planning office.

What implications does this have on the sale of said property?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234441/selling-a-property-without-planning-permission

The actual file can’t be located or there’s no record of planning?

Mecanudo

Was the house built pre 1963/4?

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118688965#Comment_118688965

The file can't be located.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118688979#Comment_118688979

No, it was built in the 1970's.

Donald Trump

I'd imagine the buyer wouldn't get a mortgage on it. No difference to a cash buyer

I'd have to guess that the best thing would be to regularise it by applying for retention now. I'd imagine it would be a mere formality.

Timeline for enforcement is 6 years so no danger of that. But it could also cause hassle if further planning permission was needed for something else.

L1011

Unmortgagable. So will only sell to a cash purchaser, which for nearly all properties will destroy the value.

mickdw

If it genuinely had planning, there will be a record somewhere.

Just last week, I had a struggle locating one from early 80s.

At that time, they hand recorded file numbers on paper maps. The one I was looking for was written on the margin and so had been lost from all scans and copies of the original. We had to dig out the old dusty original maps and sure enough was found.

I'd say try again but some planning authorities make searching difficult with files needing to be requested in advance etc.

muffler

As stated by mickdw there would be a record if permission was ever granted. My local council keep old ledgers that details were entered into and then there is the manager's orders which is the legal document showing details of the granting by a county manager. These managers orders are duplicated and kept in separate departments.

Is there a reference number available? Has the original applicant been contacted or his architect of engineer or even his solicitor?

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118700907#Comment_118700907

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118700939#Comment_118700939

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701008#Comment_118701008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701576#Comment_118701576

UPDATE: Vendors solicitor has just issued draft contracts stating that the planning permission cannot be found and one of the vendors, who has only owned the property for two years is going to give a declaration to cover such, dating back to when the property was built! The new owner inherited the property. It is a mortgage purchaser. Any experience with this type of scenario or input on this would be greatly appreciated.

Is this normal behaviour for a solicitor, knowing it's a mortgage buyer to be pushing on regardless irrespective of not being able to provide any evidence of planning? The solicitor has deleted the full clause RE: Planning Permission.

Tagged: selling, planning permission, conveyancing

mickdw

I don't see any issue with solicitor for vendor trying to get it sold under whatever conditions exist.

It is for you and your solicitor to look after your interests and for your bank to look out for themselves also.

Other than a declaration stating that the property was constructed prior to planning legislation (1964), and that no works have been carried out since then, I can't see any other kind of declaration being in any way acceptable. It seems to date that they are claiming planning exists so as far any bank would be concerned, I can't see any kind of owner declaration being of any use in that case in the absence of the planning file.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890713#Comment_118890713

Agree, and understand, vendor solicitor will try and see would be my thinking. I just frankly find it incredible to make such a sweeping assertion on a legal contract, that for most people is the biggest investment they ever make in their lives! The solicitor states they have carried out "extensive" searches and that the planning office have destroyed the records. I take all that with a massive pinch of salt.

Property was constructed in the 1970's, so well after the prior to '64 rule!

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891240#Comment_118891240

Planning departments DONT destroy records. I suspect your solicitor isnt telling the full story.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234441/selling-a-property-without-planning-permission

Don't waste any more time.If the original application,file number and grant of permission can't be found either by yourself or council.Apply for retention.No need to involve solr or anyone else.New buyer won't get a mortgage without it.A cash buyer is only postponing the inevitability of having to apply for retention themselves and might come back to you.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891526#Comment_118891526

My sentiment exactly, I couldn't believe what I was reading in the draft contract!

mickdw

I believe you are the buyer in this deal.

As I said, this declaration won't cut it or worse it will be fraudulent so no use to you in any event.

Walk away or insist on a professional report on the planning situation and if still no record found, walk away.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891616#Comment_118891616

100% agree, and thanks for giving the peace of mind providing this confirmation.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891725#Comment_118891725

Thank you for this, I'm not the direct buyer but I'm very close to the situation, there is an awful lot involved in this and what I have witnessed to date has most certainly been paramount to fraudulent behaviour by the vendors solicitor.

I'm very surprised this type of thing goes on! Most certainly a learning curve!

C3PO

I’m not really sure what you’re issue is OP?

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891771#Comment_118891771

You don't seem to understand that anything can be sold if a buyer is willing to accept it.

Property with poor or non existing title can be sold if buyer is willing to pay for it.

It is for the buyers solicitor to mind their interests and advise. If the buyers own solicitor was advising that a bullshit declaration from the seller was all good, then I would be getting worried.

If a bank is involved, they will mind their own interest also.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891526#Comment_118891526

Planning departments don't. Councils do however have a habit of things disappearing, sometimes on a wholesale basis. Some councils have very poor records of planning permissions, especially before the 1990s.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896624#Comment_118896624

That is not my experience having worked in this area for the last 20 years.

You will regularly find some missing docs but typically the reference will be found at the very least to confirm planning was applied for.

I think the managers order record also contains the ref and basic description.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896643#Comment_118896643

Agreed.

I've spent (some would say wasted) 40 years in the business and during that time I have carried out hundreds of planning searches both for myself and on behalf of various law searchers and I never failed to get details of a planning application.

We are always a step ahead of the posse here in Donegal!!!

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896611#Comment_118896611

Thanks, I understand.

And you make a very good point RE: "bullshit declaration", as that is exactly what it is, and as you say if the buyers solicitor is swayed to condone it, there is a very serious problem here!

L1011

The original planning docs for the housing estate I live in were AWOL in the council offices for about a decade. I was told they've been found but the public online file is still a scan of a "film missing" card! Reference, confirmation that it was granted, and extremely basic abstract are all that are on that system.

(estate planned late 60s/built early 70s; they have the docs for a rejected extension to the estate from a year or so later)

cml387

Indeed it seems to depend on the county council. When selling my parents house there was a difficulty in finding planning permission for an extension built in the 1970's. Our solicitor mentioned that Westmeath county council were particular poor in keeping older records.

JimmyVik

Myself and my brother bought a house about 5 years ago where they couldnt find the planning permission.

The bank was insisting on it before giving us the loan, but in the end produced a document for us to sign stating that we were aware that there was no planning permission found. We applied for retention which was fast enough and then did the house up and sold it on.

A lot of people stayed away from it because of the lack of PP, so we got it cheap.

Another house we flipped, they couldnt find planning permission either but we (i mean our solicitor) got a letter from then stating that they were aware that planning permission had been given but could not locate it. They didnt even have a reference number. But that letter was fine and we got a mortgage on that too, renovated it and flipped it after getting retention.

Its quite common with older houses as far as i can tell.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118951273#Comment_118951273

Interesting, your experience to date compared to a lot of what has been said to date on this thread! ... I agree with mickdw when he says the bank will look after their own interests.

I take it the bank knew you and your brother were buying these to flip as a commercial venture? And had possibly flipped properties prior to these investments also?

Do you mind me asking which bank(s) approved these mortgages?

mickdw

Ya I'd imagine your standing with the bank and the knowledge that you were specifically flipping the property at a profit helped but I'm still surprised because there is always the possibility of a planning issue arising and the bank getting drawn into a sh1t storm.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118952570#Comment_118952570

Both of those were with AIB.

But I do believe that it is common for PP to be lost. At least thats what the solicitor lead me to believe. When I heard it first i thought it was going to be an issue but it wasnt. There are ways to get around it that are done commonly. Ask your solicitor can you get a letter (dont know the correct name for it) from the council to say that they have lost the planning permission but agree that there is a building there. Im not explaining it well - Anyway, your solicitor should be able to tell you what to get to sort it.

Let them do the job you pay them to do.

GreenGrass2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955145#Comment_118955145

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955219#Comment_118955219

I'd be thinking the same as mickdw, as this was a commercial venture and you were doing it with your brother, they looked at it differently, as you mentioned you got it "cheap".

I'm not the buyer, but I'm very close to it all. The buyer is buying it as a home, and not to flip or as an investment, so there isn't the same comfort in this for a bank as in your scenario, that the property will be brought into compliance and sold on and that they will get back their money in a relatively short period of time with a property that is now compliant and up to regulation!

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891616#Comment_118891616

This is terrible advice. In absolute no circumstance should the OP be applying for retention.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891240#Comment_118891240

What sweeping statement are you referring to.

If they can't find a planning file, its perfectly reasonably to state that. It would be strange if they didnt tbh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900208#Comment_118900208

I'm not sure I follow the issue here. What are you suggesting the solicitor is condoning? The declaration was made, it is included in the contract. There is nothing fraudulent with that per se. It's up to the buyer to assign a value to that declaration. Personally, I know what I'd assign.

This is all really a straightforward decision for the buyer. Either;

1. They walk away
2. They insist the vendor gets retention
3. They accept the risk, and adjust the offering accordingly

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955405#Comment_118955405

A commercial venture, they the intention is a short term flip is going to be more risky for the bank. An owner occupier is less risk, as they will hold it for longer typically.

@JimmyVik got the mortage without issue as the loan reflected the value. Banks couldn't care whether a property has planning or not. Post saying "impossible to mortgage" miles off the mark. Banks just won't be interested in paying full price for a house that comes with inherent risk. Why would they, its paying over the value.

C3PO

OP - what exactly is your issue? I’m struggling to see what you’re getting at?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119017849#Comment_119017849

The advice to the OP regarding applying for retention was based off the initial impression that the OP was selling the property. They'd have to own it to apply for that!

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119025451#Comment_119025451

No, they wouldnt have to own the property. They could apply for retention providing they have a letter of consent from the registered owner consenting to the said application.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119025664#Comment_119025664

Well you can do that in general for planning permission alright but why would you bother?

You'd be a bit thick to go and pay the application fee to regularize someone else's planning deficiency and then they might either turn around and sell it to someone else, or demand more money. If you bought it subject to it becoming regularized then maybe. But other than that you wouldn't do it. And the seller wouldn't want to sell it to you on that basis anyway. Because if you didn't regularise it, you'd get your money back but the buyer could be an unwanted tenant.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119025451#Comment_119025451

I think it was pretty clear from the start that the OP was not the seller. Certainly by the time that post was made.

As above they could apply for retention without being the owner. But they’d be mad to imo.