Is it time to join Nato

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523289#Comment_120523289

Outstanding post. I completely agree with what you say and propose there.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528295#Comment_120528295

Your running out of bogey men and false claims

greencap

The DUP constitute part of Britains govt.

So we'd be entering an alliance with the political face of the UVF. If we were to join nato.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529476#Comment_120529476

Sure we be part of an alliance with the Danes ,nords, Finn's, who have previously invaded us and raped and pillaged Their way across our Island,

the filthy Heathens

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529499#Comment_120529499

Look on the positive side - at least they weren't English.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530074#Comment_120530074

I'd guess it would have to be considered after re-unification?

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529476#Comment_120529476

So does Sinn Fein, they choose not to take their seats in Westminister.

Yurt2

So she not merely wants defence policy removed from the Oireachtas and a doctrinaire neutrality calcified in our constitution, she also wants it explicitly built into the wording of EU Treaties.

Think about this for a second. Like Ireland, many countries have provisions under which certain EU treaties will trigger a referendum. This presumably would require a renogotiation and re-ratification of aspects of the Lisbon Treaty by all member states. She wants citizens in countries like the Netherlands will be voting on Irish neutrality. Craziness.

This is where the neutrality dogmatists are leading us. Plonking a dogmatic neutrality clause in the constitution removes a security option from the Oireachtas not just in the Europe and world of 2023, but in 10, 20, 50, 100 years. We don't know what security situations will arise. I'm confident that such a referendum would be defeated in any case.

FrattonFred

one minute Sinn Fein want the Russian Ambassador expelled and Irish funds to come clean on how much Russian money they have and freeze it, then she wants Ireland to have neutrality built in to the constitution.

It's almost as if Sinn Fein flip flop between various ridiculous populist ideas.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529476#Comment_120529476

So don't join simple. Or if Ireland did join tell the Brit's Ireland wants no help off them if attacked and Ireland won't defend the UK if they were attacked.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532045#Comment_120532045

I agree, don't join.

Same way Cyprus don't join, because they have colonist neighbors who are a nato country, occupying the north of their country.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531316#Comment_120531316

Sinn Féin’s hostility to the EU shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. They have opposed every ECs/EU Treaty we have ever held a referendum on. Had it been up to them, we’d never have joined and would have left years ago.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534409#Comment_120534409

And the other half occupied by another Nato country , while housing a base for a third Nato country

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833762#Comment_118833762

Good point.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704912#Comment_118704912

The good old we don't need to do anything other countries will come and save us ,

And yet there is no guarantee,

Again it come down to oh we don't want our son's going to war but it's ok that other countries Will have to send their son's to fight/defend us ,

saabsaab

How about the Minister of FA goes up to the Rusian embassy and gives the Ambassador a hard slap across the face?

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537045#Comment_120537045

Historically actions like that have been treated as a direct attack on the country an ambassador represents and have led to war. It might not be a good strategy with an already belligerent Russia.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534409#Comment_120534409

The UK is not occupying Northern Ireland. That's not an opinion, it's the constitutional reality of Ireland, and the constitutional reality of Northern Ireland.

We have no constitutional or legislative claim on Northern Ireland.

And if you want to prattle about democracy, respect the the Good Friday Agreement referendum on Articles 2 & 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann - which passed by a crushing 95% to 5% opposed.

Perhaps it's time to admit you harbour dissident republican views, which are not merely an extremely minority opinion, but one that regularly attracts mockery because of its denial of simple realities.

greencap

Lets sort out the housing and homelessness situation first, thats a far more relevant threat and enemy. Thats something real which we must now deal with. Instead of some pie in the sky wooly possibility of Russians invading from 6000kms away.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537680#Comment_120537680

We can do it all side by side

lumphammer2

I would say no .... but we are already too aligned to NATO as it is .... it is these type of alliances that have caused all these wars ... at present there is no direct threat to Ireland .... Filatov's response to recent event aside I do not think Ireland is even on Putin's radar .... he is interested in ex USSR states and maybe Poland .... besides he has to get through Germany/France/UK to get to here ...

That said and done Ireland could face other threats .. cyber crime definitely will happen ... and terrorism could happen .... and not necessarily from Russia ... and NATO has not been a protection against ISIS attacks has it?? ... many NATO countries have bore the brunt of their non-Middle East actions ...

There are at least 5 major major area of conflict at present either in full swing or brewing ...........

Ukraine v Russia is obvious .... and how that plays out god only knows .... I feel that eventually Putin will begin to lose the support of all his people like the Tsar ... after that who knows? The downfall of Putin may not turn into the dream we hoped ... violence will linger on I feel in this region ... East Ukraine and maybe into Russia as the conflict moves East ....

China v Taiwan .... another major flashpoint .... could China's Xi a Putin inspired power usurper copy Russia and grab back 'its territory'? .... You'd say Xi would not be that foolish ... then again we said the same about Putin ....

Sudan ... they are saying it could be another Syria and Libya but worse .... expect then more ISIS Al Qaeda et al ... and Omar Bashir's crew are on the loose ... who knows what would happen here ....

Iran ... if the current regime continue to oppress the people with 'Hijab' and other such nonsense then it is only a matter of time that the whole place falls asunder ... the army could split with 80% siding with the people and moderate factions but the hardliners and their army would fight a bloody war .... and ISIS and Jundullah and Taliban and Al qaeda and god knows who else .... would take advantage in the fringe areas ...

USA ... perhaps worse of the lot is a US civil war .... that country is as divided as ever and it has yet another presidential election coming up next year ... it seems like only a few weeks ago since the last one but it is actually near 3 years ago ... I don't seem election 2024 being any more 'civilised' than 2020 and the 2 leading Republicans are conspiracy theory-orientated inciters of hate ... Trump and de Santis ... I don't think those 2 would concede to defeat .... and a January 6th writ larger could arise .... leading to broader conflict .... and if someone like de Santis won you'd have a big foreign war adventure for America no doubt ....

The consequences of these on Ireland would be refugees, the potential for terrorism and economic downturn ... I don't think being in NATO would be of particular help to the real threats such conflicts would bring ... and for the USA situation it would be the main NATO country in conflict with itself ...

Gatling

Someone found the koolaid.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537698#Comment_120537698

Good points.

There are too just many negatives and little in the way of positives for Ireland as regards joining Nato. No wonder joining is a minority opinion.

(And would the Turks even let us in anyway, they'd probably just Sweden us, try to squeeze us for some kind of payoff for the honor of being associated with their authoritarian, non-human rights respecting asses.)

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537704#Comment_120537704

We should try to be able to defend ourselves at least (make it not worth it for anyone who might try). A small modern jet fighter force an effective navy and most importantly a well equipped army and reserve.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536645#Comment_120536645

If we end up in a conflict where other countries are not guaranteed to help us for some reason (UK or American occupation is all I can think of), there is no amount of military spending that could help.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538079#Comment_120538079

If we end up in a conflict, other countries will not help us.

Being non-aligned (or neutral, which Ireland is definitely not), means you are on your own when it comes to defending yourself. At best, you might get other countries to send you munitions and aid if those countries see that you are capable of mounting sustained long term intensive combat to defend yourself, much like Ukraine is managing albeit with difficulty.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537704#Comment_120537704

Yeah, there’s no advantage to joining NATO with the Russian embassy directly threatening us.

greencap

We can't even recruit personnel as it stands. What are we going to do, join nato spend 2% and then have no-one to sail more new ships.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538966#Comment_120538966

Part of the problem is pay and conditions and another is the lack of opportunities to travel and see action,

The naval service spends more time on trade missions as it does on anything else at times,

We need a complete overhaul of all of the defense forces, everything from rebranding the services to massively increasing capabilities of the different branches and intelligence services

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538129#Comment_120538129

A conflict with whom?