Is it time to join Nato

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556726#Comment_120556726

Greencap, like most things, you're positively deluded on this point. There's already a batallion of US troops in Sweden performing joint excercises.

No matter who wins the Turkish election it will be ratified after. Erdogan is doing an anti-Kurdish mickey helicopter routine for military power brokers and the public, and it's accepted he'll drop the tough guy act with Sweden if he secures the election. The opposition candidate Kilicdaroglu will ratify in heartbeat if he wins.

Orban is just being an idiot and as soon as Ankara stops the theatrics so will he.

There's no point in living in denial about the inevitibility of Sweden joining, and very soon.

eire4

Lets hope that Kilicdaroglu wins the election that would be great for Turkey and for Europe in general. From what I can see it will be very close but Kilicdaroglu leads 47-44% in the latest poll from the weekend that I saw. So there is hope that he may indeed pull it off.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556833#Comment_120556833

"We've been invited".

Ireland, not Sweden.

Wasted rant.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556874#Comment_120556874

Eductating someone undercooked on reality is never wasted keystrokes.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556855#Comment_120556855

It appears momentum is with Kilicdaroglu. Similar to the French system, there will be a run off if nobody hits the magic 50% mark.

In the provinces and deep interior Anatolia, where the AKP has always has been more popular, I think the shine may have finally worn off Erdogan post-earthquake seeing the consequence of feckless construction standards due to endemic graft.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556880#Comment_120556880

what was it you were saying?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556901#Comment_120556901

Yes it does seem like a run off is most likely how things will turn out come May 13th which will make for a nervy second round but hopefully Kilicdaroglu can pull it off as that really would be great IMHO for Turkey as well as all of Europe. I wonder would it lead to Turkey taking a stronger stance when it comes to Russia as well.

Fathom

Why join NATO? If Ireland called, USA would come quickly. And unlike Ukraine, USA would come by sea and air, and put boots on the ground. No matter who wins 2024 presidential election. Biden knows the Americans would demand it. And Trump would send the military to protect his golf resort and hotel.

...Ghost...

I think Ireland should join NATO and it's time we do. Before that, we should pay our defence forces a living wage. I considered joining and went as far as interview stage with very positive results. Ultimately, the income soured my appetite and I lost interest after looking deeper into it. Raising a family on less than what I could claim from the dole (net) was not my idea of security....not if I was going to be traveling abroad on peace missions.

As the west most land in Europe, Ireland would be a very attractive candidate and would require very little to gain membership. While it's nice to think the yanks would put boots on the ground to defend us, the fact is we just don't know this to be true and being a NATO member makes is far less likely to be attacked.

But lets be real. We can't even defend our own airspace and rely heavily on the UK for same. Our navy could be defeated by Russian fishing vessels it's so pitiful. We can and should do much better. We should start to take these things seriously.

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557188#Comment_120557188

because that's reactive... there is no proactive defence then, not just from a boots on the ground perspective, also in the Cyber and Infrastructure warfare domains.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558433#Comment_120558433

It's always someone will bail us out and look after our interests.

Even the notion that the US will come across the waves and confront a peer nuclear power because we were too feckless to make provisions for our own defence or enter a mutual security treaty is pretty fantastical.

Our security is the residual that is left over after decades of NATO investment and cooperation on the continent.

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558452#Comment_120558452

it's like trying to get car insurance after you crashed the car

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558452#Comment_120558452

It is also utterly selfish the mentality some have that ahh sure we do nothing and other people will take care of our security and defense for us no bother. We live in a for all it's warts and foibles a free open and democratic society and I know I value and enjoy that especially compared to the repressive authoritarian regimes such as in Russia. We are already part of a collective in the EU which gives us economic access and opportunity that we would never have by ourselves and we pay into that EU budget more then we get back now and we do it happily because its a great deal for us as a country. We have an obligation to develop a creditable and effective defense and security capability ourselves and not be spongers expecting others to pay for and do it for us.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558433#Comment_120558433

Is the NATO article 5 also reactive, too?

Furthermore, wonders if the 2021 agreements by the 30 nations regarding cybersecurity and article 5 would actually result in today’s 31 nations going to cyberwar with an outside NATO offender (or some more violent means), or something more diplomatic like sanctions?

There seems to be so much ambiguity regarding the sources of cybersecurity attacks today. Was it a nation’s sponsored attack, or an independent black hat group hacking attack that just happened to be sited in a nation, or a popular across national boundaries independent black hat group attack, etc, etc? And will there be confounding bureaucratic debates among the 31 about the source accordingly, postponing action, perhaps so long as to result in ineffective deterrence outcomes?

As an alternative, why not proactively dedicate significant resources to fend off potential cyberattacks, collaborating with both Irish universities and companies with cybersecurity expertise, including overseas major corporations with existing sites in Ireland (Microsoft, etc) to profit Ireland and foster Irish technology employment?

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561411#Comment_120561411

Pedantically (on your part, and it's a bit silly it even needs to be pointed out), yes it is reactive... however, there is a bit of a difference of being able to invoke article 5 within 24 hours and going through months/years of the accession process, to be able to be invoke article 5.

Yes, cyber warfare is somewhat ambiguous, but there is collective intelligence within groups such as NATO which help attribute ambiguous attack groups to state sponsored elements which does actually hold weight, and there has been counter APT campaigns in response. Everyone likes to make out "oh you can't pin it to an actual country".... where you can flip that argument and say "well if they're saying they're not a state element, they are therefor criminal, therefore we can come down like a ton of bricks and no one can complain". This has happened a lot.

What you mention at the end is already in place, but there is very much a difference to civil and military cyber domains in how they respond, with civil entities very much sitting in a regulated, response, containment and mitigation domain, whereas military can take an joint active response stance to mitigate and launch offensive counter measures against an attack (i.e. hack back, which isn't allowed by a lot of regulatory bodies in the civil domain).

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120565604#Comment_120565604

Actually its even less, approx. 1700km. I guess you must have mistaken Kaliningrad as not being part of Russia. Go look it up some time.

Anyway, whatever, the context was regarding sailing from Murmansk to Ireland.

Continue missing the point and continue calling names. It just shows that its largely those with infantile attitudes who want us in Nato. And its not happening. so jog on.

purplepanda

I don't recognise Kalingrad as part of Russia, that's for Communists & Tankies to celebrate, it should have been given to Poland & Lithuania, anyway I doubt if they could get past the Baltic Sea nations without anyone noticing.

Russian Navy doesn't currently have the amphibious landing ships to manage an invasion of Ireland, most of them went to the Black Sea. There appears to be only one in place in the Northern Feet which can carry 700 marines with a few armoured cars. I would back the Irish Defence Forces in that scenario.

Some Irish people AKA traitors would be cheering on the invaders if they actually arrived.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120565818#Comment_120565818

"doubt if they could get past the Baltic Sea nations without anyone noticing." 

"Russian Navy doesn't currently have the amphibious landing ships to manage an invasion of Ireland, most of them went to the Black Sea. There appears to be only one in place in the Northern Feet which can carry 700 marines with a few armoured cars." 

There you go. Two good reasons why we don't need to join nato.

Thanks for the help. My fellow team member PurplePanda. My valued colleague.

Antipathetic

What's the point on joining NATO when its founding member can't even fulfil its own military recruitment targets?

Because without the USA and its military NATO is a toothless tiger the crisis in Ukraine should have made it clear to everyone how useless other NATO members are. Can you imagine Ukrainians trying to rely on support and equipment from the other NATO members, without the USA. The Russians would be at the Polish border by now.

How about instead, we focus on improving our own military, rather than rely on a nation that can't even fulfil its own recruitment targets. We should start by improving our Navy considering we are an island nation. Secondly, we need more maritime surveillance aircraft. Perhaps if we did those two simple things we wouldn't have to rely on the support of others.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/us-military-recruiting-crisis-education-camp-lejeune-6f764b3a

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566202#Comment_120566202

The Russians would be at the Polish border by now.

This is hilariously wrong. Their assaults on Kyiv failed spectacularly before significant Western support was brought to play.

Gatling

Let's not Join Nato because the most powerful military in the world, isn't meeting recruiting targets based off a paywall opinion piece from 2018

😂🤣🤣🤣🤣

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566218#Comment_120566218

You're forgetting about all of the training, the Ukrainian military received from NATO before the war, the majority of which was provided by the USA. Without this support, Ukraine Would have been in a far worse position certainly, at the beginning of the conflict.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566245#Comment_120566245

Not true,the Ukrainian received training from multiple countries over the last 10 years

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566230#Comment_120566230

Well done on completely missing the point. My point is that we shouldn't be reliant on others for our own protection. We should instead build up our own defence forces to be able to protect this island from any would-be attackers. We can start this by building a strong Navy with adequate ships and aircraft to support their operations in our maritime zone.

Yurt2

Tankie logic:

NATO is simultaniously a warmongering beast stalking the continent forcing the craythur Russians to invade neighbouring countries, but also useless.

And these are the same posters that want the US out of Europe, because...reasons. And at the same time they acknowledge that minus the US, NATO and the European security architecture fundamentally doesn't work, and Russia would be knocking on Poland's door right now should they leave.

Does everyone see where these sausages are going with this? They don't give a crap about European security, Ukraine's security or indeed Ireland's security. It's all rolling tobacco pamphleteer anti-American blather. Not what does or doesn't work for European security.

It's Tankie hall of mirrors guff.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566250#Comment_120566250

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but yes, they did receive training by NATO prewar remind me again, who is the largest NATO member?

I'm pretty sure the majority of their funding and training came from the USA.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566268#Comment_120566268

What part of multiple countries provided training to the Ukrainans over the last 10 years is difficult,not just America,

But Russia still invaded

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566266#Comment_120566266

There you go again throwing out cheap insults you think after your last thread ban because of all the temper tantrums you were throwing; you would have learned to be a bit more civil in discussions.

I never said that NATO was useless, just that it was useless without the USA and that's why we should focus on our own defence rather than relying on the nation that can't even fulfil its own recruitment targets and has big internal problems to solve.

I care deeply about Irish and European security. But I believe we should be able to deal with any threat on our own or with our European partners without relying on a nation that is an ocean away.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566328#Comment_120566328

Apparently wanting your country to be able to defend itself without having to rely on others is pro-Russian now, you know if you search back through my history. I have advocated for Ireland to consider getting its own nuclear deterrent to ensure that no other nation could ever again invade us. Not that that is ever likely to happen in this universe. What is more likely is the USA to fracture internally and end up in a second civil war. Who's going to save us, then if you're favourite bad guys, the Russians come knocking?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566352#Comment_120566352

I have advocated for Ireland to consider getting its own nuclear deterrent to ensure that no other nation could ever again invade us.

🤣 Jesus Mary and Joseph and the wee donkey

Lads, can someone else field this one, I'm actually lost for words.