Is it time to join Nato

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629474#Comment_120629474

Ireland has done **** all for Ukraine in fairness. What we have done though is take in a lot of Ukrainian refugees, but in terms of actual material support? Its been a bit pathetic.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630543#Comment_120630543

In your opinion.

Id say in terms of help sent we've done ok, but could do better. And will.

For our size, and for our circumstances. And for Ukraine being a non-EU country.

Kiel has the US, a Burchaest memorandum country, at 0.4% of gdp.

Irelands gdp is obviously unreliable as a measure, at approx 0.2%

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630853#Comment_120630853

This is what I would call substantial support from a comparable country to Ireland

Denmark shows solidarity with Ukraine through multifaceted and long-term support provided bilaterally and in concert with our partners and allies. Since the outbreak of the war, Danish support to Ukraine amounts to approximately EUR 1.3 billion in military support and EUR 192 million in civilian, including humanitarian, contributions. Of the civilian support, approx. EUR 152 million has been donated and approx. EUR 40 million has been guaranteed. The Danish support to Ukraine excludes danish support via the EU.

https://um.dk/en/foreign-policy/danish-support-for-ukraine

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630927#Comment_120630927

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/

According to this stats site Ireland has taken twice the number of refugees as Denmark has.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120631032#Comment_120631032

Ok so you acknowledge that outwith accepting refugees from Ukraine, Ireland has not made a substantial contribution to supporting democracy in Ukraine.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120631110#Comment_120631110

Dont Cathy Newman me.

The refugee reference just shows that contributions are contextual, and each country has its own circumstances to take into account.

Denmarks balance sheet may lean more in the direction where a simple transfer of assets and funds is the better approach, and their politicical situation may make taking refugees the less feasible option.

We may have something in the opposite direction.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628516#Comment_120628516

We are indeed spongers and selfish when it comes to our own defense, Security and intelligence capabilities that is just a fact. We do not have capabilities in these areas with our current military and are dependent on others thus we sponge off others in this regard.

Being a member of the EU does not have a bearing on our lack of military capabilities because to answer your question it is not a military alliance.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632087#Comment_120632087

Just the old self flagellating Paddy act.

I wouldnt mind but youre also showing a disappointing lack of knowledge.

We're net contributors to the EU, and work with (and contribute to) CSDP, Pesco, Enisa, Europol, frontex and EU SatCen.

These EU agencies most certainly have a bearing on our defense, security, and intelligence.

Those are facts. Try using them. Facts.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632622#Comment_120632622

Speak for yourself and to yourself if you want to use derogatory comments about Irish people. For me I am simply pointing out the fact that Ireland has no legitimate military capability and as such sponges off other countries in that regard. The fact that you cannot accept that does not change the reality that it is the case.

Indeed we are net contributors to the EU budget a fact I have acknowledged. The EU is not a military alliance and our membership of the EU does not have a bearing on the fact that we do not have a legitimate and capable military capability.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632711#Comment_120632711

You said that EU membership has no bearing on our security, defense or intelligence capabilities. Its a few posts up above.

Our membership of the EU permits us our position in Enisa, Csdp, pesco and EU sat-centre.

These EU agencies co-operate with us on cyber-security, defense procurement, satellite intelligence, and on joint foreign missions.

Those are facts. And those facts are in direct opposition to what you said.

How do you respond?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632886#Comment_120632886

I respond by saying that yes as a member of the EU we have played roles in various EU agency's such as ENISA for cyber defense, The EU Satellite center and CSDP although our role here is severely truncated by our triple lock policy currently. Ireland is part of PESCO although again our role is very minimal.

Now when you claimed, to quote you "EU membership has no bearing on our defense, security or intelligence capabilities" that is an outright lie. I said and I quote what I said again:

"No question as members of the collective that is the EU we are playing a very positive role in supporting Ukraine within the EU. That though has little bearing on being a member of NATO or not or our own defense, security and intelligence capabilities."

The key word there being "little" and I stand by that the small role we play in some of these EU agencies is due to our lack of a legitimate and capable defense, security and intelligence capability. I did not say no your claim that I did is a lie. That is as you like to say a fact.

As is the case that our lack of military capability means that we currently are acting as spongers in that regard due to our dependency on others to pay for and do what we have not the capability to do. Another fact.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633377#Comment_120633377

Very well I misquoted you.

Although we have now established that the EU agencies, such as enisa, csdp, eu satellite centre, (and frontex, and europol) do indeed have a bearing on our security, defense and intelligence. Great that we can all agree on that.

I still dont accept any accusation of spongers though. We contribute our share to all of those agencies. An Irish commander led one of the recent csdp african missions. And an ex-taoiseach was primarily responsible for creating and establishing one of the above agencies. (Clue: awful).

There are downsides and upsides to our geographical location. Its far more difficult to trade, we have far fewer economic options, everything costs price+shipping. We dont get an award or praise for putting up with such downsides.

The upside is we've much less need of a strong military, its far more difficult to invade than if attached to the same economically bustling continent. So why should we accept any condemnation for spending relatively less on our military. When we get the praise for weathering the downside Ill be happy to accept any condemnation for the upside.

If we do have a duty then its to the EU, an entity which helps us and which we in turn pay into, as net contributors, not nato.

We already have our partner, of several decades long standing. One which gives us satellite intel, cyber defense, defense assurances, and foreign extremist and international human-intel.

A trusted partner from our own continent, so that we dont need a fifth wheel steered by America. Europe first. Not America, not Russia, not the Arabs or the Chinese. God knows theyre all looking out for themselves first. Not us.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633627#Comment_120633627

No you did not misquote me you lied.

We do indeed belong through our membership of the EU to a number of EU agencies which do indeed have a small bearing on our security, defense and intelligence capabilities.

You can refuse to accept that when it comes to military capability that we are spongers. But it does not change the fact that we are indeed spongers. We do not have a military capability that is legitimate and thus are dependent on other countries to make up for that fact. Thus we are spongers.

Apparently you have a parochialism when it comes to countries from outside the EU and or Europe as regards to having the military capability to defend the democratic free and open societies of which we are one. Personally I do not share that parochialism. I would be happy to see us allied with countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and the USA when it comes to having the military capability to defend ourselves against oppressive authoritarian regimes such as the authoritarian dictatorship that is Russia. It does not necessarily mean we must be a member of NATO to do so. It does mean we need to develop our own legitimate military capability so that we are not continuing to be spongers.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633802#Comment_120633802

Exactly, we dont have to be members of nato to do so. All of the means are within Europe to do so.

And we're a net contributor to Europes stability and security, which by definition makes it impossible to be a sponger.

You can self flagelate all day if you like and consider yourself a sponger, I wont be joining in such nonsense.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633856#Comment_120633856

Your net contributions are starting to sound to like water meter protesters we don't need to pay for water,we pay road tax,do you own a car no I don't,but me mammy does

AerLingus747

I for one look forward to SatCen coming to our aid if we ever need it, they are the pinnacle of security respondents

gormdubhgorm

I think Ireland are better off with the status quo. Joining NATO puts a bigger target on Ireland. and Ireland is the soft underbelly of Europe as it is it.

Ireland is much better increasing/maintaining it's soft power in the EU and other nations, in my opinion.

How would the Irish electorate feel about increased Military spending and militarisation of Ireland? I don't think it is feasible as Ireland's size of country is too small to mount any serious defensive position.

In reality Ireland has protection from the UK and the USA if Ireland is invaded. As the UK would not want it's borders threatened, the USA would not stand for it from a geopolitical standpoint.

So what advantage would joining NATO give to Ireland that it does not already have from it's protection from the UK and the USA.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635040#Comment_120635040

Satellite surveillance, a very long voyage, and the opponents defensive alliance with missile producing countries.

Not at all promising.

No need for the mixed bag of nutjobs that is nato.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634966#Comment_120634966

Yeah but we're still not in nato, so keep complaining, nobodys listening.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635453#Comment_120635453

Well were hearing more and more about NATO,

It's safe to say things are going to change,

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635518#Comment_120635518

Youre hearing about it while Ukraines in the news. Thats your window of opportunity. Soon as it ends therell be no boogieman to point to, nothing to hype. Youre relying on short term, ingorance, and knee jerk reactions, and clickbait news.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635677#Comment_120635677

No ,no I'm not.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633856#Comment_120633856

The EU is not a military alliance. We have no legitimate military capability currently. We can either do something about that and actually stop being spongers dependent on other countries for military capability or develop a legitimate military capability ourselves and carry our own weight.

You can continue to stick your head in the sand and say to yourself it is not so but our refusal to develop our own legitimate military capability and be dependent on other countries for said legitimate capability is to be a sponger in this regard.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635078#Comment_120635078

Your of course entitled to your view on this. I will however disagree that joining NATO would put a bigger target on our back. Being in NATO is the only reason that Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia are still free and independent. Being in NATO is protecting countries like Poland and Romania. It is why Finland and Sweden have joined, well in Swedens case that is not obviously officially completed but nonetheless.

The idea that Ireland is too small to have a legitimate military capability is just not true the above 3 countries would be examples. Norway, Finland, Denmark and Sweden others. Nobody is talking about Ireland turning into some kind of military super power spending obscene amounts on weapons. The reality is we spend a paltry amount on the military currently in Ireland and as a result have a military that is utterly incapable of doing its job.

The whole notion again of depending on other countries to provide military capability is so utterly selfish. We are a democratic free and open society. We are not a neutral country in the sense that we are part of a collective in the EU and allied with other countries that have democratic free and open societies. Just because no one is about to drop bombs on Dublin tomorrow does not mean that it is ok to not play our part in defending the democratic free and open societies of which we are one by developing our own legitimate military capability.

greencap

Taking Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia as examples.

These countries are net beneficiaries of the EU. (Theres nothing wrong with that btw).

We as net contributors to the EU (and EU peace facility) therefore contribute to the EU funds which in turn pay for these countries' govts to maintain their militaries.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635892#Comment_120635892

The only "dependence" we have is on the raf for a problem which they own.

Even if we had 100 jets it would still be on the raf to clean up their own mess which only ever occurs thanks to nato/russia beef.

If we insisted tomorrow that they dont enter our airapace they still would, as is also in their best interest. The Russians arent targeting Bundoran.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636111#Comment_120636111

Shannon would be a strategic location,

We wouldn't need 100 Jets 24 would be more than enough,if we had jets they wouldn't enter our airspace uninvited like everyone else

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636111#Comment_120636111

Nobody has said we need 100 jets so save the hyperbole. But at least you do finally acknowledge the fact that due to our lack of a legitimate military capability we are dependent on other countries in that regard.

The only reason there is a to use your word "beef" with the Russian dictatorship is because the authoritarian regime there has imperialistic ambitions just as their predecessors in the communist dictatorship and NATO has put a halt to that in terms of allowing first western Europe remain free from the repression regimes in Russia and has done likewise as many of the eastern European nations have regained their freedom from Russian oppression.

greencap

Our military neutrality is worth a lot more than some planes.

Lets not change our far more important place in world affairs for the sake of some fancy planes/magic beans.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636044#Comment_120636044

Utterly spurious and disingenuous. Sweden, Denmark and Finland are all net contributors who have capable militaries which you well know.