Is it time to join Nato

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683780#Comment_120683780

You're on about this?

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/06/08/ireland-would-not-need-referendum-to-join-nato-says-taoiseach/

But then you have this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/06/08/taoiseach-claim-about-joining-nato-contested-by-legal-experts/

But if evertone is for ot then why not put it to a vote? Is it because the government knows it will fail? Whether or not, So to put it to rest it should be put to a vote because if anything like this is snuck in without letting the people have their say. Then that's not very democratic i would say and only knows the damge that will be done to their parties. I feel like people like these are only looking for a pat on the head and only looking out for their own interests and the people come second to big business.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683766#Comment_120683766

Do you really think Russia could occupy Ireland?

Not are they interested. Not what do other people think. Not the nazis were interested.

Do YOU think Russia could occupy Ireland?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684023#Comment_120684023

Its simple we don't need any vote ,we are only non aligned as government policy not constitutional ,

Nato membership doesn't change a thing for average Joe on the streets unless your Daley and Wallace

Scipri0

It's simple if you work for the Irish people then you should represent the Irish peoples wishes, which i'm sure the majority don't want to join NATO. you have to pay 2% GDP yearly and seeing as our GDP is inflated can you imagine the amount of money? If we join NATO and as the years go on and people get used to it what services will they cut back on or cut down on just to keep the NATO spending up? The average joes life will be improved with more housing and other critical services.

NATO doesn't change anything for the average joe except take money from their pockets to be funnelled into foreign defence corporations and when it comes to times of war it is the average joe that will have to send his kids or himself to go to these wars that these wealthy rich people control so not only have they your money but they might as well take the average joe and his kids and throw them into the meat grinder and all that just to preserve their profits while they play their political theater games.

Do you think Micheal Martin or any the rest of them are going to send their kids or grandkids? No. It'll be the poor working classes. Sorry about the rant, This is not me being against you or anyone else here by the way. I just feel strongly on these countless issues that we're all facing today in not just this country but other parts of the world as well and nearly always it's the same huge corporations at play whether it's military,housing,healthcare etc.

Larbre34

Factually, MM is right. NATO membership could be passed by Dáil Éireann tomorrow.

But, but, but. There isn't an Irish politician currently alive and active that doesn't understand the realpolitik that a plebiscite would have to be held on such a fundamental foreign policy change to give it legitimacy.

One thing is for certain though, foreign and defence policy is going to feature as a policy issue in the elections of '24 and '25 like that haven't in many generations, or maybe ever.

No doubt Martin is keen to have his Security and Defence Forum and probable subsequent Citizens Assembly on the issue done and dusted before then, but its certainly going to keep the Proletariat Before Logic party busy.

I'm pro-NATO, but I cannot see what advantage it would be for Ireland to join the block.

Unless we think that Russia would launch a nuclear strike against Ireland, which is clearly unlikely, the debate appears to be completely fabricated.

Gatling

@Scipri0 you have to pay 2% GDP yearly and seeing as our GDP is inflated can you imagine the amount of money? If we join NATO and as the years go on and people get used to it what services will they cut back on or cut down on just to keep the NATO spending up?

Most don't spend 2% of their gdp on defense spending, our services are already shite despite billions been wasted year in and year out, we've a population that just touched 5 million but in 10 years we will spend 250 billion on social welfare alone,tell me how that's sustainable,we on average spend more money on over seas aid than we do on our defense forces, year in year out out health services are in crisis,tens of thousands languishing on waiting lists wait up to ten years to see a specialist,and thata before we get to the ongoing housing crisis, thousands homeless and in cases waiting 10 + years on housing lists and no hope of getting housed anytime soon,

And god help you if you have any child or children with special needs...

And your worried about spending on the defense forces might take away from services

Larbre34

Well clearly Sweden and Finland, among others, believe that the matter is more nuanced than that and I tend to agree.

But regardless, I agree that NATO is not a good fit for Ireland. However, we do owe it to our friends and colleagues across the western hemisphere who are NATO members, to at least be able to fully protect our own yard, which at the moment we cannot. And that failure to invest for decades in proper defence is driving Ireland into more NATO cooperation, out of necessity.

Ironic really, that the so called anti-war groups in Ireland have campaigned against local investment in the defence forces for so long and that this could be the main catalyst that drives Ireland into becoming a NATO nation in all but name.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684400#Comment_120684400

Or services are shite alright but even with our coast guard helicopter duties like we are outsourcing them, Why can't we get the Aer Corps to do that as well. It'll give them a lot more hours and practice. We already wasted over 2 billion on just one hospital so i can only imgaine the waste that'll be spent on NATO membership. The population increase is what the government wants it could choose to make it easier for people to afford a home and start a family but instead they require cheap labour for their hospitality buddies among others.

They pretend that they're nice thoughtful people but a source of cheap labour is too hard to pass up instead of raising wages. The government could do better but they refused to. Would you get private medical care or insurance if our public service was litterly the best one in the world or thereabouts? Yes you would and so would i and do you know what that will do in return? It'll make private health industry less profitable or maybe even redundant.

That's bad for the business class and Neoliberalism of ehich FFG which represents. It's big business first and the rest of us are the worker bees who are secondary if even that in their thoughts. I've no kids, Like i stated above i can't afford it because i can't get a house of my own and settle and create a family of my own. People are being held back in live and can't progress due to this greed.

The welfare spend is mostly on pensions for people who worked all their lives the rest then is Carers,jobseekers etc but in my opinion i don't mind that as i would prefer the money to be spent on helping the people in this country instead of going into the bank account of some extremly wealthy people.

I actually am for every worker in this country who works should be able to live somewhere and have a home whether it's being rented or buying. The point of a job was supposed to support people in their lives, instead we have people going to work coming home, have about 5 hours to themselves and then get up in the morning and do it all again and for what? Most of it spent on rent,bills and food and hardly anything left to live and enjoy their lives. The rich and wealthy will live out their great lives at the expense of their workers.

You retire and you might have health issues and could go on for 10-15 years or whatever but all of your energy and youth has been expended and now you live your final years out with health issues but thanks for going to work and letting some rich CEO live the best of their lives at the expense of yours!

2% of our GDP would be $10.46 billion!

Total UK military expenditure is only $59 billion

There's no way we'd spend that on defence, and I don't think NATO would expect it either.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684542#Comment_120684542

The defense forces are looking for 1.5 billion per year for the annual budget, even if we went and got 2 squadrons of jets 24 aircraft it still be quiet affordable depending on the type of aircraft chosen,I think the figure they are looking for is less than 24 aircraft,15 give or take,,

A primary radar has to be top of the list along with increasing cyber defense systems for critical infrastructure and services ,

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684542#Comment_120684542

Indeed so when the government comes up with rubbish like everythings going well because "GDP" is up. It's not, Well it might be for them up there but not others.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684301#Comment_120684301

Our politicians are there to act as they see fit in what they perceive are the peoples interests, not to act on peoples wishes.

The people never wish for taxes to be raised. That doesn’t meant it isn’t in their interest (eg to pay for better public services).

Equally, the same applies to defence. Some people may not wish for the expense and hassle of paying for defence in peace time but it clearly would be stupid to argue it isn’t the peoples interest. It’s too late to start planning to get round to having decent defence capabilities sometime when you start to come under attack.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684309#Comment_120684309

No plebiscite would have to be held to give such a decision “legitimacy”. The constitution is clear that the Oireachtas has the legitimate authority to make such a decision anytime it chooses.

Nor indeed could such a decision be classified as a “fundamental foreign policy change” in the light of the revelation about the hidden defence arrangement (ie defence alliance) with the U.K.

slipperyox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678950#Comment_120678950

Haven't read this entire thread.

But, no one would step in if Russia Invaded.

Northern Ireland would obviously be ok.

In fact, its a logical step if I was Putin.

Scipri0

Our politicians are there to act as they see fit in what they perceive are the peoples interests, not to act on peoples wishes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684636#Comment_120684636

Our politicians are there to act as they see fit in what they perceive are the peoples interests, not to act on peoples wishes.

The peoples interests include representing them, if your avoiding a vote on an issue that the majority of people are against then who are you working for?

People are okay with taxes once they have services that are there for them and that are working. I don't think much people would mind paying tax if they had a funtional healthcare system, housing and like we have in most of the western world, a decreasing population and they wonder why? Housing is being turned into a commodity by people who already have homes of their own and now they pull up the ladder on the rest because "they got there's" and "My property price" and now it's profit, Extra income, It's another house to rent for them.

Just keep going on building up properties and wealth and then we'll cry as to why people aren't having any children which will cause havoc for our future pensions(That we might need to raid!!) so instead we'll import cheap unskilled labour(From outside the EU) despite having around 446 million in the EU with freedom of movement.(all those workers are too expensive!) So we'll grant amnesties to ones that arrived illegally under the guise of helping them just so we can avoid raising wages. People are being denied reasons to raise and create their own families because of greed.

Okay, lets say we join NATO who would we be defending ourselves from? No matter how much equiptment you buy Ireland wouldn't be able to hold off an attack from a larger nation. Your trinkets in storage wouldn't last long and when it comes to that war, What does that tell you? It tells you that the world has so gone to **** that now Ireland is being attacked. And no matter what we buy it wouldn't last long. I said before that nuclear weapons are the ultimate defence but yet that seems to be defending ourselves too much. The reason? Well they want to sell their wares that's why.

Nicks delight

Stick to being Neutral that way we can let the Idiots fight it out while we sit on the side watching it with a cup of tea in one hand and a cookie in the other. There are no winners in war for the ordinary people, otherwise known as 'canon-fodder.'

keep your sovereignty. Don't Give away your freedom, independence or the right to free speech to EU or the WHO. Make sure decision making about our land and our lives here in Ireland...not In Brussels by some WEF owned crocked politician that are busy stuffing their own pockets rather than looking after you. Local food production, local decision making, local. become independent, not dependent. NATO NO. :)

200mg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684764#Comment_120684764

Tripe Ukraine was on the back foot from the start of the war. Ireland is not Neutral and never has been it's not even in the constitution. One thing Ukraine had was help from NATO from the start of the invasion and now receiving kit. They also had kit to dig into in the meantime Ireland has nothing to mention. So as a sovereign state we are to hide behind the British and Americans ? I find that funny with the whole 800 years guys expecting the Brits to come to the rescue. While hurling from the ditch.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684766#Comment_120684766

Independent, expect in defense where the policy is "someone else will help".

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684724#Comment_120684724

As it stands I doubt their ability to invade even if they want to. .

This is largely due to distance and the sea.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684643#Comment_120684643

What I mean is, it would need a mandate, either as part of parties' election manifestos or in a stand alone vote. And no party would want it to take over the narrative of an election and so a plebiscite is neater.

And the air defence arrangement with the UK is not revelatory, to many. I've known of it for 22 years.

All that's changed lately is the geopolitics around it, that now makes it unacceptable to some people here, many of them the same people who were quite willing to tolerate it when the World was less volatile. Which just layers hypocrisy on hypocrisy.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685556#Comment_120685556

It doesn’t take any form of special mandate to do this anymore than it takes a special mandate to raise taxes or introduce a new (tougher) road traffic act. The Oireachtas is free to act as it sees fit and anyone who subsequently wants to reverse that is free to campaign for it, get elected and try to “restore our virginity” and bring back the “neutrality” we have never had.

And the air defence arrangement/treaty most certainly is a revelation to most people since we’d hardly have been discussing neutrality had the general public known we had a defence arrangement/treaty with another country.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684764#Comment_120684764

The example of Switzerland directly contradicts your claim that we couldn’t have the defence capability to hold off and/or deter an attack.

And, lest you are unaware of it, having that defence capability is a legally required prerequisite for a country to be “neutral”.

Being utterly defenceless is not being neutral, no matter how much people here want to delude themselves that it is.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684766#Comment_120684766

We aren’t sovereign if out entire defence strategy basically relies on other countries not attacking us since the decisions on whether or not we are sovereign rests in other countries’ capitals, not ours.

Nicks delight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686708#Comment_120686708

And that's a good enough reason to give away your neutrality? so If you live on a street with two fighting gangs that constantly fight and snuffing each other out every day while you live in peace in your house would willingly chose to join one of the gangs? You might, but that's not me.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684764#Comment_120684764

Tell that to Ukraine,

They have been holding off the Russians with trinkets for over a year now

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686871#Comment_120686871

First off we are not neutral. Militarily we do not belong to any alliance but politically we are very much part of the democratic world. Secondly I most certainly would and do support the democratic free and open societies of which we in Ireland are one of and oppose the repressive authoritarian and dictatorial regimes of which Russia is one.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686674#Comment_120686674

The air defence arrangement has been an open secret for years (decades?)

Though I do agree with the fundamental point that Ireland is not neutral and we should stop pretending as much.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684770#Comment_120684770

Who are we supposed to be defending ourselves against? Their enemies is it?

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686693#Comment_120686693

But who are we defending against? Who is attacking us and when it comes down to it if Ireland is being attacked that tells you that the world is already gone to **** and if Ireland is being attacked it's obviously being attacked by a larger force which no matter how many trinkets you have bought they wouldn't last long anyway.