Is it time to join Nato

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737002#Comment_120737002

Its couched in less clear language than the NATO mutual defence clause. Also "However, it does not affect the neutrality of certain Member States" is a sop towards Ireland. Either we are part of a mutual defence pact or we are not - if its supposed to be viewed as a one-way deal where we don't have to go to another EU member's defence because we're "neutral" but we expect them to come to ours that would be absurd.

I don't think we need to join NATO, and indeed I think EU clause would be sufficient. But then that equally undermines any statement about not wanting to join a mutual defence clause and makes it seem far more like reflexive anti-US nonsense.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120735553#Comment_120735553

Russians aren't using Shannon for a while now. And won't be again, until the war in Ukraine is over.

Full EU airspace ban. Russian owned, registered or controlled aircraft.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120736055#Comment_120736055

The biggest risk is the near shore / shallower water cables that are in our EEZ and even in Irish waters. Those actually feed Ireland with data connectivity and are a hugely significant economic asset for Ireland itself. If someone were to snip a significant number of those cables it would cause us enormous problems and do a lot of damage to our reputation too. It's not an insignificant risk.

The cables that are passing through our EEZ are really not something we'd be realistically able to protect anyway and are very much a multinational risk as they're providing transatlantic general data connectivity.

The other significant risk we have is undersea gas and energy connections, more so the ones that are in the Atlantic or the Celtic Sea off the south coast i.e. our own domestic gas connections to Corrib and potentially any reuse of Kinsale Head and the connectivity between Ireland and France that's being built at the moment, which is a 720MW DC interconnection. That's something that Ireland and France should be able to patrol and keep an eye on. The Irish Sea interconnections are probably safe enough as the area's VERY well monitored, basically is the UK's back yard and is full of British Navy activity.

We will also have increasingly large amounts of critical domestic infrastructure in the near off shore area in terms of lots of wind power in the next few years, and that's also something we should be able to protect.

Apart from that we seriously do need active radar systems. It's a bit ridiculous that we cannot monitor our own airspace for aircraft flying without a beacon. It's rather fundamental to civil aviation safety that we can at least be aware of what's flying around and it's becoming more of an issue when Russia is in this mode of behaving pretty much as a rogue state outside of international norms. You don't really know what they might do. All it takes is a plane to be up there on some ridiculous flight path and without any malicious intent toward Ireland, there could be a collision with a civilian aircraft.

At the very least we should be developing much better levels of cooperation with our neighbours and with NATO on these issues, but also we should have our own independent, high tech radar systems and so on. Ireland's a very wealthy country and we can afford some of this tech and should be using it. It's off-the-shelf kit.

I also think Ireland could really innovate in areas like use of high tech drone systems for coastal monitoring. There's really no reason why we should be a laggard on any of these areas and they don't have to be anything other than defensive.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120735653#Comment_120735653

More difficult, the deeper the water, the further out.

blanch152

The quickest way to get Ireland into NATO would be for the US to pass a law that US tech multinationals could only base themselves in countries to which the US had a military alliance. The Irish would fall over themselves chasing the money to get into NATO.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738663#Comment_120738663

That's pretty fanciful stuff. I'm also not sure I agree with your conclusion, I think the country would (quite rightly) resist that kind of strong-arming. I also think the multinationals would lose their mind.

satguy

If we ever have a referendum on joining NATO, I would vote no,, as would most of the country.

But in the next few years, the question of an EU army will gather pace. This is something I could see myself voting for.

It frees us from a USA dominated NATO, while letting us ease our way into an area we might not be comfortable in.

We all know who took out that gas pipeline,, Do we really want to join a NATO that would do this to one of their own..

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738663#Comment_120738663

EU would just tell the US no.

Same as when the Donald tried, and got telt.

1 market, no menu, take it or walk.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120729413#Comment_120729413

And the NATO countries that snoop around our airspace and seas? Every country in the world conducts intelligence operations.

Is Russia a direct threat to us? No. They invaded a non Nato and non EU country and can't win, how would an EU country go for them?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739349#Comment_120739349

They invaded ukraine and only thanks to people with real courage and balls and a hell of Natos weapons,live 24/7 intelligence and tens of billions of dollars they have been able to hold the Russians back ,

We have 8000 poorly paid and equipped defense force with low morale and a retention and recruiting crisis's

We've also only got two decent airports and no land borders to bring men, equipment and supplies in through,lose them and then what

Larbre34

Russia is a direct threat to our resources, communications, data systems and infrastructure.

Russia has failed at direct open warfare, but if you think they are going away you've got another thing coming. It will push them further and harder into hybrid and remote warfare; targeting economic life, social services and ordinary people.

And as Ireland is an hub of digital comms and innovation, we appear no different to them than Czechia or Finland or Portugal. In other words, fair game.

And by the way, if you think the US or any other NATO member or group blew up the Nord Stream pipeline, you need your head examined.

It fits the Russian profile 100% and we've only 2 weeks ago seen another example in the same approach with the destruction of the dam near Kherson. Russia invented strategic warfare and the false flag agenda over a century ago. They call it the 'maskirovka doctrine', literally 'the masking' and they are the best in the World at it.

realitykeeper

So Michael D saw fit to apologize for calling a DBE a DBE.

Yes, apologizing for the truth is the in- thing these days. I guess Michael D is a man of our time in that way.

He does seem pro neutrality so fair play to him for that at least.

NATO is a truly benighted organization and most of the world can see that. The collective west is behaving like a rogue state.

While I do not doubt NATO generals and high ranking politicians have their bunkers dug, they will not be inheriting the earth, contrary to what they might believe.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739485#Comment_120739485

We very much have a land border.

Also our supply chain to help would be a lot simpler than the supply chain of any enemy forces (outside of the UK itself).

An Invasion of Ireland is not a remotely feasible outcome to spend any time worrying about. The focus should be on our already strong ties to most of NATO anyway.

markodaly

Anytime I hear those proclaiming the pro-Irish Neutrality stance on the Media, I am reminded of a 5-year-old child, telling us how the world should work.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738261#Comment_120738261

I do agree with getting radar and more naval assets because we're an island nation and also some cyber security would be good and also to increase pay to encourage people to join and actually stay. I would prefer if Ireland invested in science and tech more so it could try and create some of these industries and having our own will help us a lot. We haven't even joined CERN which is a shame. The last few years with overspends on a childrens hospital and then the voting machines makes me wary of what they would do when it comes to defence spending.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738648#Comment_120738648

That is true as well but Russia and the US and a few others would have the tech and knowhow. It just makes it easier for them closer to land.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120740707#Comment_120740707

The National Children's Hospital is a bit of an anomaly though. We deliver plenty of other projects on or below budget and often on or ahead of schedule - motorways, road projects and quite a lot of other stuff. Most countries have one or two white elephants. Have a look at Germany's The European Central Bank (ECB) headquarters in Frankfurt, the Elbphilharmonie Concert Hall in Hamburg, and the Berlin-Brandenburg (BER) Airport (4 billion over budget)... The ECB was three years later than planned and with a cost overrun of 48%. The Elbphilharmonie was finished seven years late with an overrun of 1025%

In France, Flamanville-3 the new nuclear plant was budget at €3.3 billion... the project is running at €13.2bn and counting ..

. Ireland's not at all unique in those kinds of flag ship politically driven projects running off the tracks.

Radar would be pretty much off-the-shelf installation at a very clear price and delivered by a major supplier, whoever that happens to be after a tender I assume. It's extremely unlikely to go madly over budget.

Building cyber security expertise is likely to be quite complex though. I don't think it's something you can do overnight and the state would need to seriously invest in recruitment of the right people into some kind of cyber-security agency, perhaps not directly as part of the military but more likely a special agency of some sort. That could be quite expensive, but I think it's also something that the big IT companies' corporate taxes should be going towards. It's as if we're not making a LOT of income out of those IT related cashflows and it's not unreasonable that we would put some effort into securing some of those things, which would have a big net benefit for the country in general, particularly around protecting our own infrastructure, telecoms networks, private sector companies, state bodies, health systems etc etc. There's a lot of stuff hanging on various IT systems of various levels of sophistication.

Scipri0

Cyber security would be complex but when you consider that Ireland is relying on the tech industry then that's an area they should invest in. I just don't trust the government over all the crap that went on the last few years. I feel we'll be taken to the cleaners and all this just so our leaders can get a pat on the head or a future job. They're only looking out for themselves. Look out they treat the Irish people and now they're coming out saying that they want to increase our defence spending to protect us?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741776#Comment_120741776

Why shouldn't there be defense spending increase

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741787#Comment_120741787

Depends on what's being bought. Increasing the defence spent to raise wages? That's fine with me. Buying equipment that is only mostly in storage and rarely used? I honestly think that what's happening here is that only a select few we see any real benefit. I think the government is being lobbied really hard to increase defence spending and when they see the recent tax intake we got they're begining to smack their lips.

Micheál Martin and Leo Varadkar are in support of this because it makes them look good to those outside and when they leave public office and take up private jobs they'll be rewarded. Lobbists,people in government and those around them along with the defence compaines stand to gain from this. The average man and woman on the street won't and i think we'd be better to put it into infrastructure and other areas instead of into the bank accounts of the already rich and wealthy

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741861#Comment_120741861

Micheál Martin and Leo Varadkar are in support of this because it makes them look good to those outside and when they leave public office and take up private jobs they'll be rewarded.

This is a deeply tried trope that is constantly rolled out to explain why politicians do anything. It is not remotely backed up by actual history.

Ireland needs to decide what its defence forces are actually supposed to do and equip them for that task. That could mean just removing them as Iceland have done, or acknowledging the need for them and funding and resourcing them properly. Maybe that means removing infantry capability but expanding naval and electronic ability - but clearly its not well set up at the moment for anything. This halfway house we do at the moment is silly.

Suggesting literally everything our leaders do is solely for personal gain and that they do not care about the country as much as me is a bloody sad and cynical viewpoint that I hope I never fall pray to.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741787#Comment_120741787

If we are totally outside any defence alliance, then even large defence spending increases may have minimal security benefits. We are too small to defend ourselves alone from any big boy who might be a threat. I can think of only one such big boy at the moment.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741901#Comment_120741901

For one section like the Aer Corps they could be used to do the helicopter coast guard duties instead of it being leased out to companies. No matter what Irelands buys it's not going to defend us and it wouldn't last in a war. Who would be attacking and why? The way this country has been run and now how brazen they're getting i would be always wary and i can see that when they say to increase spending so we can protect cables i know they're full of sh!t and that's only one reason among many others.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742116#Comment_120742116

Every bit of this is bullscutter.

You've convinced yourself of certain things because they fit your agenda. It's called confirmation bias.

But let's dismantle your nonsense.

A) the Air Corps do have some role in Search and Rescue, but the reason the Coastguard helicopter service is contracted out, is so that crew resources can be found all over the World. If the Air Corps did it all, all of the pilots would need to be Irish military officers, which is limiting and difficult to replace in a hurry. Such a chance that helicopters may be left unmanned for HR reasons, is too serious to risk by having our small Air Corps do it.

B) The Defence Forces investment plan is not to fight a war, but to enable the proper protection of the State and its assets and resources in a peacetime risk profile, based on the changing global security environment brought about by Russia's aggression.

The investment includes a military architecture for cyber defence, such as the devastating attack on the HSE IT system, carried out by Russian based criminals who are not only tolerated by the Russian Government but encouraged and resourced to attack western states.

This State is a junction for communications and data services for hundreds of countries and millions of people and that's the very simple and very clear reason why we would be under threat. If we fail to protect the billions invested here, the billions that in turn employ hundreds of thousands of people and raise massive taxes, then the investors will eventually F off somewhere else.

You don't know people are full of sh1t, that's just your opinion. And stood up against all your other opinions, it doesn't add up to a convincing argument.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742336#Comment_120742336

Nah. It's not confirmation bias as i do look at both sides. Like when i read something in the news i check multiple sources then i check what company owns that source and what people they have and who owns it then you can get an idea of where they stand.

B) The Defence Forces investment plan is not to fight a war, but to enable the proper protection of the State and its assets and resources in a peacetime risk profile, based on the changing global security environment brought about by Russia's aggression.

Protect the state from who? IF Ireland is being attacked what does that say to you? It tells me as i already mentioned that the world must've gone to **** already and why are they attacking Ireland after i presume they must've fought off most of the western world but now little old Ireland stands alone!! And with it's new found defence spending it shall defend itself against this superior adversary. When you join NATO their enemies will become ours.

The investment includes a military architecture for cyber defence, such as the devastating attack on the HSE IT system, carried out by Russian based criminals who are not only tolerated by the Russian Government but encouraged and resourced to attack western states.

That group could be yes and that experience i knew first hand as i couldn't get my dads death cert for a long time. But western countries also play their games. They also have a way of doing cyber attacks and making them seem as they come from elsewhere. Not saying it happened in this case but it's why i always keep an open mind. Like another thing when it came to the destroyed dam in Ukraine they say that the've satelite pictures but where was that satelite footage when it came to the Nord Stream pipeline? Russia is not doing good in Ukraine and yet somehow managed to slip by various EU and NATO countries undetected with all their satelites,navies,radars,aircraft patrols and so on.

Russia is in the wrong here when it comes to the war in Ukraine but by god(and i'm not religious) love to push the Russian scare tactic. You have countries in NATO but when it came to Iraq they had to create a "Coalition Of The Willing" because they didn't get UN approval. You have countries in eastern europe like Latvia and Lithuania and Poland going on about how Russia is wrong for attacking Ukraine and they're right but they also had no problems attacking Iraq. The west and NATO is the good guy either. Russia is now shown up to be a paper tiger apart from it's nukes so now the last few years you have the western countries switch to China because they see that as an up and coming threat not just militarliy but also economically(Which is partially down to their own corporations greed)

This State is a junction for communications and data services for hundreds of countries and millions of people and that's the very simple and very clear reason why we would be under threat. If we fail to protect the billions invested here, the billions that in turn employ hundreds of thousands of people and raise massive taxes, then the investors will eventually F off somewhere else.

There's more cables that connect North America to Europe. They don't all come to Ireland and there is redundancies but Ireland increasing it's defence spending is not going to change that, If a country want to interfere with them then they will whether that's in Ireland's EEZ or further out into the atlantic. If we fail to protect the billions here? Those cables aren't ours.

Yes we depend on them but that responsibility is not Irelands alone. Invested billions here because they don't want to pay a higher rate of tax and they know they have leverage over those gombeens in government. Jobs are important but so is living and that in turn creates high rents and pressures on housing as they need to import the some of the workforce. Mate, They have no loyalty to Ireland if somewhere else pops up then they'll be gone anyway. It's another reason i always wanted more support for Irish businesses and am reluctant on some of the Green Party ideas to cripple some of our most successful industries which will only then have their place taken by other countries who support their own. Foreign investment is a good thing but we should never rely on them 100% and certainly shouldn't be pimping ourselves out.

Juvenile (and selective) Irish Left being juvenile again. Nothing changes….. Disrupting the security forum in Cork this morning.

markodaly

As I said, children are children.

You are always onto a loser when your only tactic is to shout someone down.

In fact, that is a trait of fascism ironically enough.

Also, not one word about Russia or Ukraine from any of these 'protesters'.

WheelieKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748061#Comment_120748061

Well done to them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748130#Comment_120748130

Well done to ignorance maybe? What NATO ‘war’ has killed ‘millions’? The last time i checked it was the US & UK that invaded Iraq. Nothing to do with NATO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748130#Comment_120748130

Well for a poster who spends a lot of time shilling a Pro Russian narrative in the 'Russia' thread its no surprise.

We all know that Putin and his cronies hate NATO and the EU, that is the side of history you and those protestors are on. The side that castrates young men, rapes young boys, girls and women, commits genocide, blows up dams and commits war crimes and atrocities.

Well done to you.