Is it time to join Nato

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785349#Comment_118785349

Simon said today were not neutral ,

Go figure

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785379#Comment_118785379

Neutrality is a figment of imagination.

We were not neutral in World War II when we supplied the Allies with weather information.

We were not neutral in the 1980s when we banned Aeroflot from landing in Shannon.

We were not neutral over the last few decades when we have allowed US military planes to land in Shannon.

We are not neutral now, when the whole country bar Sinn Fein, Wallace and Daly, stand with the Ukrainians.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785379#Comment_118785379

We are not politically neutral. We know this.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785378#Comment_118785378

Of course, I forgot that thread you opened exhorting us to go to the aid of the Yemeni's and the Palestinians and and and.....

Gatling

I see we bought new inshore Patrol vessels for the Navy at the weekend ,it's a start

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785451#Comment_118785451

Think of misery and death from lethal drugs they might have stopped if we had them a few years ago. The state our defence forces were left in by the power swap really is a savage indictment.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785504#Comment_118785504

Well that can be fixed ,and by all accounts the government is finally going to get the finger out and spend the money ,we spend more on average sending money to African states than we spend on our defense forces

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785590#Comment_118785590

Good to hear.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784995#Comment_118784995

Why would Ireland be targeted ahead of anywhere else? Ireland poses no threat to any other power, and they have no resources that anyone would want to claim. Attacking Ireland before any other country in Europe achieves nothing other than wasting military equipment and personnel, and alerting the rest of the world what you are up to whilst exposing any military that you stick in Ireland to getting wiped out as they can't protect themselves properly or quickly enough from any counter attack from UK, EU or NATO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784328#Comment_118784328

As has been already said, our Neutrality was put up for sale a few times by leaders in the past. It is not some covenant.

We are now members of the EU. The EU has for obvious reasons been coy about militarising the EU, but this invasion has changed everything. There is little public appetite in the US to send in American troops into a European conflict. The EU knows this now hence why Germany ditched 80 years of post-WWII policy in one day.

Trump or someone like him in the future could pull out of NATO, which would leave Europe very vulnerable. THIS is why there is now a renewed push at European levels to agree to a more wider defence pact of sorts with the French leading along with the Germans for the first time in decades.

Put simply, we may not have a choice here.

We cannot just say, Yea we are part of the EU, we owe our economic wealth to it, we are politically aligned, we are economically aligned, we are socially and culturally aligned.... but when it comes to military integration or cooperation, sorry..!!

That is not going to fly anymore. Even countries that are neutral like Finland and Sweden know this. The EU will also put it up to Ireland to sort out **** out when it comes to the mere basics.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784594#Comment_118784594

You are actually wrong on this one.

A state that aids another in a war, isn't neutral.

This is what the Red Cross has to say

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law8_final.pdf

State practice since the adoption of those Conventions has modified this view. The separation of the State and private armaments industry is now artificial and does not correspond to political reality. Arms production and the arms trade are in many ways managed, promoted and controlled by the State. Customary international law at present holds that the State is committing a non-neutral act if it grants permission to supply any sort of war materials, i.e. not just the examples given in the law (warships, ammunition and other war materials), which are purely illustrative. Massive financial support for a party to the conflict, supplying oil or coal, etc., would also tend to constitute non-neutral behaviour.

You are welcome!

It seems to me that people are plainly and wilfully ignorant of what neutrality means in reality. That they are so pent up on the word itself they think sending war materials to another country means that Ireland is still neutral.

Its the Disney and Ladybird version of reality that some people want to hold onto.

DeadHand

@markodaly

Watery.

You should read that passage more carefully- it defines the supply of materials as a "non-neutral act", not a belligerent one. I can engage in a silly act, it doesn't make me silly. It seems the Red Cross are performing some gymnastics there to pressurise states and corporations profiting from war, as is part of their remit.

The definition has little real world value. A country can supply war materials while remaining neutral: Sweden and Switzerland famously did so in WW2. Many countries continue to do so.

In any event, I've heard rumblings here but I've not seen anything concrete to indicate Ireland has sent any lethal aid to Ukraine as of yet, happy to be corrected on that. I'd be surprised if we did, being a strictly neutral country to this point.

I fear news saturation has excited people to the point they are losing their grip on the basics. Again, I suspect this will peter out in a week or two and neutrality will remain.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786610#Comment_118786610

I fear news saturation has excited people to the point they are losing their grip on the basics. Again, I suspect this will peter out in a week or two and neutrality will remain.

It's primarily FG using the war for political gain. We'll be seeing the leaders running about in flak jackets for photo ops like Macron next.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786370#Comment_118786370

Yes, looking backwards, you may be right. However, looking forwards is a different thing. Ireland has ambitions to be the supplier of wind energy to Europe. That will be a resource worth targeting in the future.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787021#Comment_118787021

You can't load wind onto a boat and sail away with it. If you want the wind power you need to negotiate and pay for a big electric cable with a friendly other county who wants to sell their electricity to you.

If thinking that setting up supply lines from Russia to Ireland to support a military invasion wasn't crazy enough, thinking that they also setup an undersea cable at the same time to get the electricity back to Moscow is doubly so.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787046#Comment_118787046

Those cables will need protection. We can't do it alone, and our partners in Europe know that. They will want guarantees of supply, NATO protection of the resource gives that.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787054#Comment_118787054

Considering these cables would be going to, and through, NATO countries I don't think it will make any difference if a hostile third party tries to attack the cables. It would be considered a direct attack on that customer country anyway.

If it's just that you are suggesting some Russians will head over to the middle of Ireland and sabotage the cables there, then that isn't something they will be doing with a massive invading force and aircraft and bombs. Whatever existing security that Ireland has would be able to deal with a couple of lads with some cable cutters.

Fast jets and anti aircraft defenses won't help in the scenario you are thinking of.

Shao Kahn

The most likely country to invade and occupy our nation, would be the Brits.

But they're already occupying part of our Island, and I can't see the NATO alliance rushing to our defense to kick those dastardly evil occupiers off our land. I suppose that would be the first real litmus test if we ever did join up?

Article 5 has never even been tested in reality, so we've no actual way of knowing if NATO would risk ww3 to save a tiny nation until it actually happens.

Besides, we already showed that we are well capable of defending our nation and kicking out a mighty empire from our land without the help of a powerful military alliance. Objectively the British Empire was much stronger than Russia, and we were much weaker than Ukraine. We fought a much smarter war of attrition, rather than getting smashed to pieces using conventional warfare.

I mean, if you're inclined to swallow the over simplistic media narrative on this conflict in Ukraine... I suppose you'd be willing to believe just about any nation on earth might invade and occupy our Island, just for the craic like. There in lies the danger of allowing the sensationalist media machine into your head.

The same people who are inclined to swallow the lazy propaganda that Russia's military are pathetically useless and incompetent in this conflict with Ukraine, are some of the very same people who will tell us we need to join NATO because Russia are going to try and take over the whole of Europe. I mean you can't have it both ways... either they're pathetic and useless, or they're a threat to the whole of Europe? (maybe even the world?) lol

People wonder why the yanks are hiding in their bunkers with a gazillion weapons, seeing enemies everywhere they look... this is the reason why. Their media whips them up into a frenzy, spreading as much fear a paranoia as possible.

And of course their own government and leadership are part of that culture too, which is why you now even see their president using terms like "false flag" etc. Which is a term that has it's origins among the tinfoil hat wearing brigade. Their own leadership has the same paranoid mentality, seeing potential enemies everywhere they look.

Why would we want to join an organization that is led by people with this mindset? This mentality doesn't help to make the world a safer place, it actually does the opposite.

NATO has become an overly aggressive antagonistic organization. I really don't see what possible benefits there is to Ireland joining...

We are a peaceful nation. We have a very proud history of neutrality (regardless of what some might say on here). Our friendly and peaceful nature, combined with skillful diplomacy is our best defense against any would be aggressor.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787083#Comment_118787083

More thinking of naval patrols and submarines, actually.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787127#Comment_118787127

This is silly nonsense. No chance of the Brits invading us, unless we did something stupid. If we had a Sinn Fein government backing Russia in its fight with Ukraine, we might be putting ourselves at risk, but I don't think it could ever come to that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787240#Comment_118787240

Yeh...we need worry about the Shinners!!! 'Giz a vote please'

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785378#Comment_118785378

Nationalism has always been the only thing that breaks imperialism.

It's doing it now to Russian forces, it is what drove the destruction of the 3rd Reich, it sent home British soldiers in a box from here and many other countries. It helped break the Soviet empire apart.

Which is one of the main reasons that the modern left hate it, it is at the heart of many working class communities, it's always driven a defiance and refusal to tow the line, fall in to place behind the self appointed saviours.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787301#Comment_118787301

It will make a few uncomfortable here and in government as the war progresses no doubt. Ukrainian nationalism 'good', Irish nationalism 'bad'.

Snickers Man

No we shouldn't join NATO. NATO is dead. Has been for years.

Europe is falling down the priority list for American overseas involvements. They're far more interested in Eastern Asia and, to a lesser extent, the middle east now. The European Alliance is going to fracture. America will de-emphasise its commitments to the continent at large and instead cosy up to a few reliable nasty aggressive states (Israel and Britain plus whatever minnows don't want to get too entangled with the European rump eg Norway) who will look after its interests by proxy. If the rest of Europe wants to safeguard itself against aggression from wherever it will have to become more self reliant than expecting America to show up with its $0.7 trillion ANNUAL defence budget* to bail it out in times of need.

This is likely to happen. The Brexiteers have been waffling on about a European army for some time. Up till now NATO has been the European Army effectively but with America picking up most of the tab. As America drifts away from iron commitments to Europe the British have had to make a choice: do they stay with a common European defence policy or do they instead ditch the Europeans and cosy up to the Americans saying "Can we be your friend?" They have chosen, and will always choose, the latter.

This puts Ireland in an invidious position. We can either go with Britain/USA and ditch Europe (as the more rabid Brexiteers like Nigel Farage and Kate Hoey have always said we will do) or we can become more closely aligned with Europe and start to pay our share wrt common defence policy. But if we become more closely aligned with Europe we revert to being Britain's very obvious strategic Achilles Heel. They will want to reassert control.

We are Britain's Ukraine--a country that at heart they have always considered to be their possession, and one that they WILL NOT allow a rival power bloc to dominate. That's been our history since the turn of the 16th century. It's about to come full circle again.

Forget NATO. Look at what the real strategic alignment is in Europe at the moment. The days of our cheery non-committal neutrality are probably over.

• *Source CIA World Factbook

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787412#Comment_118787412

Not at all Francie.

The only bedfellows on this island with the Russians are the exclusionary Irish nationalists in Sinn Fein and its variants.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787528#Comment_118787528

Like going to them to beg for a vote/affirmation?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787594#Comment_118787594

Very disturbing that you equate government to government relations with government to political party relations.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787613#Comment_118787613

😁😁 That's a handy distinction.

Coveney was representing US, not a political party. He looked for Russian affirmation on our behalf. Much more serious than a political party seeking it.

They also facilitated the flow of Russian money on OUR behalf, implicating us all.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787528#Comment_118787528

They only party that was ever under the direct and financial control, in every way, was the Worker's Party.

It did them no good long term, that ill gotten gains have been no help to the Labour party either.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787752#Comment_118787752

True, but in the last decade or more, Sinn Fein moved to fill that vacuum and developed strong links with Russia and Russian propaganda.