Is it time to join Nato

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723508#Comment_118723508

So if we join NATO we will stop Putin lobbing 10 Megaton bombs? Maybe he'll withdraw from Ukraine if we join?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723470#Comment_118723470

No I asked a fairly simple question as you repeat RT and Putin talking points again and again on boards.ie

So for about the 10th time of asking, what have NATO 'engaged' in? Do they have an 'end-goal'?

These are fairly simple questions that warrant asking.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723566#Comment_118723566

We don't close eyes. We offer, to me anyway, an extremely valuable service after wars and conflict. We couldn't do that as part of NATO and we have already watered down our neutrality to the point where it might come back to bite us.

Cassius99

We in Ireland live very charmed lives. By an accident of geography we are positioned on the periphery of Europe next to a (relatively) friendly neighbour. Strategically, there's not much to be gained from targeting us. Realistically there is nobody that wants to (or would feel the need to) invade us.

However, there's a number of points that the sad events of the last week have raised:

1. If attacked, any non aligned country is on their own. You cannot expect other nations to fight your battles. The often repeated Irish "expectation" that the EU, the US or the UK will intervene and bleed on our behalf needs to end now.

2. Any nation worth its salt, needs to be able to stage a credible defence/resistance to be regarded as a nation deserving of its independence. Unlike what some on Boards often declare, nobody expects Ireland to defeat any country in battle (let alone a superpower). But it is expected that we at least stage a cohesive defence of our sovereign territory even if that is ultimately futile. Nobody expects Cyprus to defeat the Turkish army if they suddenly decide to annex the rest of that island. They do however expect them to at least take the field of battle and say they tried to give them a bloody nose.

Likewise, the oft repeated mantra of "sure the RAF will protect out skys" is BS. The UK has it's own strategic interests. Brexit (and history) should have taught us by now that these interests may differ drastically (if not be completely contrary) to what our own interests are as a nation.

Ultimately I would not agree with Ireland joining NATO. It is unnecessary and I am not comfortable with the possibility of being drawn into conflicts that do not directly concern us. But that is a luxury we are afforded due to our location on the globe, nothing more. We do however, need to drop the whole "sure the world loves us" spiel, and take steps to ensure our owm security, as the recent HSE hack showed.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723544#Comment_118723544

Nobody has said the we'll be "conscripting tens of thousands of young unwilling boys to fight in some far-flung place" except you.

BTW there were thousands of Portuguese troops involved in Afghanistan, too, as part of their NATO obligations.

goldenmick

It's not Nato you want to be overly concerned about. Ireland needs to save its pennies for a while and then get some nukes.

Just a handful of them, at the ready and pointed at the bully boys of the world.

They'll think twice about fecking with us then.

The world is full of nuclear weapons, and always will be. So if you cant beat them join them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723690#Comment_118723690

Just on the topic of no country coming to our defence...

An attack on Ireland is a de facto attack on the UK and therefore an attack on NATO. The RAF don't monitor our skies for the good of their health. It's beneficial to the integrity of their territory.

Anyone who thinks Ireland gets invaded and the British don't react to protect Northern Ireland is away with the fairies. You think the British are going to allow a hostile enemy run amok a few miles from their border?

Now, if there was a United Ireland and the British had no territory on this island, that'd be a different story. We'd be paddling our own canoe then.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723927#Comment_118723927

The British would still look to patrol the skies over Ireland because of fears of attack from the west. Their actions on the world stage make them a target, let them at it.

Cassius99

Only a few months ago Dominic Cummings was telling the world that it was the UK's Brexit masterplan to effectively force Ireland out of the EU (contrary to our national best interest).

For anyone to then state their contentment for such a nation to be an integral part of their own defence strategy is at best an ill judged viewpoint.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723842#Comment_118723842

Irish troops also served in Afghanistan.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118724064#Comment_118724064

So you are happy for the RAF to patrol Irish airspace?

Just ROFL!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725593#Comment_118725593

I would have no issue allowing the British overflight to protect themselves, as long as they didn't abuse the permission.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725585#Comment_118725585

Not as combat troops. Their main operations were admin and dismantling IED's as part of the UN's peace keeping efforts in support of the ISAF from 2001 to 2012. Later they were part of the RSM under NATO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725646#Comment_118725646

Afaik, not all members of NATO sent combat troops. But you get the point, semantics aside joining NATO is not the doom some people make it out to be.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725615#Comment_118725615

What about protecting Irish airspace? Does it not embarrass you that Ireland has to phone up the RAF to help them intercept Russian jets that incur in our airspace?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725660#Comment_118725660

It's also completely unnecessary.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118703723#Comment_118703723

"1919-23?"

The Period when Russia was the only major power to recognize the independence of the revolutionary Irish Republic & established diplomatic relations with Dail Eireann, when we were shunned by the US government who refused to meet our President or even listen to our democratic demands at the Peace Conference? That period?

"During the Irish revolutionary period, the Soviets were supportive of Irish efforts to establish a Republic independent of Britain and was the only state to have relations with the Irish Republic.

During the 1916 Easter Rising, Vladimir Lenin spoke of it positively calling it a decisive "blow against the power of English imperialism". In 1920 Roddy Connolly, the son of the Socialist Republican James Connolly who was executed by firing squad in the aftermath of the Easter Rising visited Lenin in Russia. Lenin informed Connolly that he had read his father’s book "Labour and Irish History" and that he rates him “head and shoulders” above other European socialists."

theguzman

I would be in favour of increasing our military co-operation and increasing military spending. How about cut 50,000 useless public and civil servants (HSE?) and cutback on social spending and then increase our military spending and increase troop numbers to 30,000 minimum. There should be compulsory military service and firearms training for all citizens, look at Finland. Have a few fight jets, anti aircraft rockets and the ability to deploy 50% of our military overseas at short notice.

We need to build up our military forces because after Irish reunification we can be almost certain that the day will come when we will have wage a defensive war in Northern Ireland as after a United Ireland referendum passes (demographic certainty) we will have to roll troops and peacekeepers in immediately and quell the Unionist rebellions to prevent Civil war in NI.

If we look back at History Irish Neutrality in World War II was the yet another one of the great disgraces De Valera and Fianna Fail hoisted on the nation, if ever there was a justified and moral war it was the battle against Hitler. If we had a Government with integrity at the time we would have openly declared war on Germany and Japan after Pearl Harbour in unity with the United States not the British Empire allowing them to save face also. Our participation would have saved countless allied lives in the battle of the Atlantic, allowed for the defeat of Hitler earlier and seen D-Day take place sooner holding back the Soviets from conquering such large swathes of land in Eastern Europe as the Allies would have arrived sooner. It would have given Ireland access to Marshall Aid after and seen large parts of Dublin and Limerick destroyed (no harm there) and rebuilt (properly) and alot of our current day problems like infrastructure and housing would not exist. Churchill had promised a United Ireland had we joined and if we did the Northern Unionists would not be as sceptical either and I believe it would have happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725670#Comment_118725670

If we want to protect ourselves then we can protect, make the investment. I don't see it as necessary, we are not under threat.

Polar101

As far as defence policies go, "someone else will help" isn't the most convincing one. Why would anyone help a country that doesn't want to defend itself, even though it could afford to do so?

Necro

You can be neutral and still be somewhat self sufficient in patrolling your own airways and coasts.

I don't think there's any need (nor appetite) in the country to up military spending to say, 3 billion and jump into NATO headfirst. To those that do think it's a good idea - it's also one that's incredibly unrealistic. It's simply not going to happen.

What we do need to do though is invest at a bare minimum in ships to patrol our waters, and radar for our skies. And pay those that do it more.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723552#Comment_118723552

So for about the 10th time of asking, what have NATO 'engaged' in? Do they have an 'end-goal'?

These are fairly simple questions that warrant asking.

Mod - The questions are unlikely to be answered at this point so asking the user again and again is just badgering them and soapboxing. Just move on

People with no knowledge or interest in geopolitics had the Ukraine invasion show up on their facebook feed a week ago, replacing whatever drivel about celebrity dancing or soccer matches they were reading previously. Now they think we are "next" and we better join NATO. It is absurd and points to a real problem with our education system.

FrancieBrady

Leo seeking to blame '70 years of the public thinking somebody (the UK or the US) was coming to help us' for the hollowing out of our defence forces and the state they are in was peak power swap politics.

The defence force are in the state they are in due to neglect and lack of funding, there have been enough calls and demands on this.

nigeldaniel

The left and their friends in the ultra-left don't do irony, do they? Just saying as I have been reading some of their posts here with some degree of amusement.

NATO is like it or not fast becoming an essential part of Europe's defence and Ireland will need to step up to the plate in that regard.

Ireland does not need to spend crazy money on defence but we can spend enough be assembled specialist units that can be deployed in the event of them being needed. Cyber units, drones operators, counter-terror units. Rapid reaction battalions. Some of them can double up as emergency rescue units in the event of natural disasters. That would be in regard to Europe as a whole.

Just my two pennies worth here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730053#Comment_118730053

Peacekeeping forces are needed too. That are not aligned to NATO or any military alliance. That is a huge offering to the world.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730006#Comment_118730006

Has there though? I remember ten years ago there were calls to scrap the government jet as if ministers should be taking a Ryanair flight to EU meetings. That is the level of maturity we have in relation to this stuff.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730449#Comment_118730449

Which has what to do with the Defence Forces?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730086#Comment_118730086

One can do both. There is nothing stopping other NATO members from offering the UN troops in peacekeeping.

There were some good points made though about the Triple-Lock in deploying troops, where essentially the permanent members of the UN security council can veto where we deploy troops. Essentially Russia, China and your friends the UK, can tell us where we cannot deploy troops.

If one was a truly neutral nation, it would purely be up to us and no one else.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730480#Comment_118730480

The government jet is a part of the Irish Air Corps. Can you imagine the reaction from the usual crowd if say the government went off to buy jet fighters or some more boats to patrol our waters?

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730086#Comment_118730086

We need the army to act as binmen and bus drivers sometimes, perhaps we should factor that into our plans too?

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730053#Comment_118730053

I think the problem with NATO is that its leading members (US & UK) are far too militaristic. Putin's propaganda is that NATO is a front for US & UK imperialism. I listened to a Ukrainian yesterday explain that the Ukraine disarmed because the US & UK promised that they would protect them. Where is the US & UK now when they need them. Putin's real fear is EU enlargement, but he can't use that as propaganda or as a reason to invade Ukraine.

Ireland would be nuts to join NATO. We would be a sitting target and a launching pad to attack both US & UK from Atlantic. The UK always wanted to hold onto Ireland and Scotland for strategic reasons as we are a natural protection barrier for them.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730086#Comment_118730086

We ve had troops on peacekeeping/peace enforcement missions under NATO and it hasn't changed anything.

From personal experience I preferred NATO missions as there was always a sense that they had your back unlike UN missions.

From a personal view, I never felt we as a country were truly neutral. Whether we like it or not we are aligned, we buy Western equipment for the military,are part of the EU, are part of the EU battlegroup programme, and our social and political stances are clear.

If we were truly neutral then we would have to have the capacity to enforce this policy, would have to pull back from a lot of the roles we have in a global society.

We are more correctly militarily non aligned, but with a clear leaning.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118725714#Comment_118725714

Leo would disagree with you about Ireland's part in WWII. He recokons that it was Dev's greatest achievement keeping Ireland out of the war.

Over a 1000 people died in the bombing of Belfast - the biggest loss of life in a German air raid in UK. The British didn't even bother to launch a defence and it was the south that mainly came to their aid. How do you think Ireland would have defended itself against the Luftwaffe or the German navy?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730584#Comment_118730584

No argument on our neutrality being watered down.

An Irish peacekeeping mission must comply with a triple lock approval: from the UN, The government, and the Dáil. Some of those missions have been led by NATO of which we are not a part.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730540#Comment_118730540

eh?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730679#Comment_118730679

Essentially foreign powers like the UK, China and Russia have the same say in how we use our military as the Dail does.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730886#Comment_118730886

If one of two arms of our state say no, then it doesn't happen regardless of what the UN say. Not the same say at all mark. Sorry.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730894#Comment_118730894

If both arms of our state say yes, but the Brits or the Russians say no, you are OK with that? Not much of a Republican I guess ;)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731017#Comment_118731017

What?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731049#Comment_118731049

You know what I am talking about. Feigned ignorance won't get you off the hook.

nteytaa

sorry if you have already stated and i missed reading your post -

Fact no need or help.If a conflict with russia\china etc.

nato\eu\uk\usa being on their side does nothing

in a conflict ireland being western soil on atlantic to usa is seen as a possible landing point into europe for usa

Hence one of the first for nuke strike to remove possible use.

i am inclined usa also targets for the same purpose to stop a large force use ireland as springboard to usa.

You gotta get real - we not talking a tank against a tank with a major conflict

Nato no use to ireland but endangers its citizens as be dragged into minor conflicts.

THIS why usa\uk\nato NOT engage in ukraine -

the usa bluff called and bullying has come to an end .

Just like borris uk only one to take uk out of eu - putin only one to say stop usa and has the nukes if try to silence him.

IT is a new era and time to rethink whom\what is good for the citizens and forget about threats from usa.

remind you there is a 3 billion population whom did not support usa led un action against russia

usa and eu is 300 million - whom we better trading with ? as i not interested in getting roasted for corrupt usa\irish\eu politicians

whom are already getting rich on our taxes and dont feel what the majority of citizens feel as poverty\high prices\poor sevices etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731116#Comment_118731116

I don't. Other than a penchant for taunting about Britain what is that post about?

Dyr

Francie seems very confused: The primary reason we have a military is not peace keeeping abroad, it's the defence of our territory, obviously it's completely incapable of that but that's what we should be focused on. I know Irish people are addicted to for the pat on the head from abroad for being good chaps but we may have to forgo that for a bit and make like the Finns

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731178#Comment_118731178

The Brits, the Russians and the Chinese have a veto on how we use our defence forces. You seem OK with that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731182#Comment_118731182

Yes, absolutely. The defence forces have been crying out for years for proper funding to do the job they should be doing.

Joining a military alliance brings us into a different realm though. Rather than being defence forces the would become an offence force. And we as a people do not want to do that.

By all means properly fund our defence force though.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731189#Comment_118731189

That's part and parcel of being in the UN, the top 5 have a veto. Are you only finding this out now?

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731167#Comment_118731167

WTF 😂

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731203#Comment_118731203

No, that's part and parcel of us having the triple lock.

I would remove it and let the Dail and Government decide what our defence forces are to be used for. Surely you agree?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118731294#Comment_118731294

Have you thought this through Mark.

That would mean our government (whosoever it is) could send our troops anywhere. We could send them into the north if required for instance...or to Venezuela.

Given your previous views, I can be confident that you haven't given this a second's thought other than using it trying to rile people.

As a world umbrella group the UN is the best we have despite it's flaws.