Is it time to join Nato

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823237#Comment_118823237

I never apologised for a murderer in my life mark.

I never supported PIRA or any paramilitary force.

I do have a lot of respect for those who took the chance for peace and built it. That includes former members and supporters of paramilitaries.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823246#Comment_118823246

Absolutely, they were involved in a conflict/war.

bob mcbob

For what it is worth my list of those that caused the need for peacekeepers would have 2 names in joint first place - Mark Sykes and Francois George-Picot.

Sometimes diplomats can cause way more chaos than soldiers.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823356#Comment_118823356

'Perfidious Albion' didn't come out of the blue. NATO member of some rank, still not to be trusted in international relations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819909#Comment_118819909

That's some of the stupidest logic I've ever come across.

I'm really struggling to find what you're trying to say. That if something is good or worthwhile then it would already be the case.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823460#Comment_118823460

The question arose from a discussion about the primary motives of NATO. If it is to protect people, then how come Ukraine is not already in NATO?

George Bush dangled the carrot 6 years before 2014 and 14 years before the full scale invasion. Zelensky was pleading with them, still is.

cena

We need to have an NRA type thing here to buy guns. Ireland needs a way to defend itself should anything happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823535#Comment_118823535

The Primary goal of NATO is to protect NATO members. We're back to the nonsense Brexit logic, you don't get all the benefits of a club unless you're in it.

As for why they aren't in NATO, they were never going to join while the nonsense in the East was still going on. This is one of the biggest points that's been getting overlooked the last couple of weeks. There was no threat of anything in the medium term. And we're literally seeing every day why Ukraine were trying to join.

Defensive weapons have been going in because of the threat from Russia. Without what has been sent and the intelligence being provided there'd be a huge amount more progress made by Russia.

Other than an alternative history where NATO doesn't exist, out of interest, what should they be doing now? Should they stop sending weapons in altogether? Jump in feet-first?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823622#Comment_118823622

The prospect of NATO membership was dangled in front of Ukraine 14 years ago. They wanted to join, they saw their neighbours joining yet they are still not in it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823726#Comment_118823726

My neighbour got a Mercedes and I want one but I don't have one. Therefore it would be bad if I got a Mercedes?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823875#Comment_118823875

If somebody says that their goal is for everyone to have Mercedes's and you don't have one, even though it was patently obvious you needed one....?????

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823450#Comment_118823450

There is another angle to consider in relation to Sykes-Pichot.

When empires break down things can get very bloody and can stay that way for a long time. It happened with the break-up of the Hapsburg empire (the fighting went on for 5 years after the end of the first world war and flared up again in ww2).

The aftermath of World War I was worse. On Armistice night, as he left the House of Commons, Winston Churchill said: "The war of the giants is over. The wars of the pygmies is about to begin." The pygmies, in civil wars in Germany, Hungary, Poland, the Baltic states, Finland and Russia, went on fighting for years, killing or starving to death millions. A full-blown war of conquest by Greece against Turkey ended in a Greek humiliation but also 300,000 deaths.

Closer to the present the break-up of Yugoslavia gives us a clearer picture of what can happen. The end of the civil war there only happened after Nato enforced a peace of sorts in 1995.

1995

• Srebrenica massacre reported. 8,000 Bosniaks killed by Serb forces.[100]
• Croatia launches Operation Flash, recapturing a part of its territory, but tens of thousands of Serb civilians flee from the area. The RSK responds with the Zagreb rocket attack.
• Croatia launches Operation Storm, reclaiming all UNPA zones except Eastern Slavonia, and resulting in exodus of 150,000–200,000 Serbs from the zones. Yugoslav forces do not intervene. War in Croatia ends.
• Dayton Agreementinternally displaced or refugees.

What is happening now in Ukraine is just another example of the break-up of an empire (Soviet one in this case). If you want to partially blame Nato you are free to do that. If you want to sit on your hands while watching a bloody civil war with millions killed, wounded or displaced and say nothing to do with me - then you are free to do that. After all you will then be in a position to feel good about yourself when the killing is over by sending in a couple of hundred peacekeepers

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825182#Comment_118825182

The thread is about NATO.

I.E. It is a discussion specifically about NATO and it's faults.

Again with the projection about what I feel. Bizarre.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825219#Comment_118825219

Actually this thread is about should Ireland join Nato.

You say that Nato has some responsibility for the current position in Ukraine as a reason for not joining - that is partially blaming Nato as per my comment

You say that Ireland's neutrality is important so should not join Nato - that is saying that what is happening in the world (like Ukraine) is nothing to do with you as per my comment.

Which part of my comments have misrepresented your position

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825297#Comment_118825297

My position on NATO is this: as an entity it's primary goal is not saving lives or protecting people. If it was, Ukraine would be a member long ago as the signs of what might happen were there. Ukraine wanted to and still wants to join.

Neutrality is not saying any such thing, neutrality is saying we are not getting involved in military action but we are happy to play a part in other necessary and valuable ways.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825308#Comment_118825308

Francie, you could actually argue that the role nations like Ireland play in these conflicts is actually more important.

You have the gung-ho types, who want to blow each other apart in the never ending military conquests around the world... (and co-opt more people with them if possible) then you have the people and organizations who go in afterwards and clean up the mess these folks leave behind. (ie UN peacekeepers, various charities and voluntary orgs)

We're one of those nations. And we should be very proud of the great work that we do in this regard.

So all this talk of us supposedly sitting on the sidelines with our neutrality is not really completely accurate. We are actually very active as a nation, but in ways that could be considered far more positive than picking up an AK-47 and joining in with the seemingly never ending stream of violence that human beings have always liked to indulge themselves in.

At some point, as a species, we need to find a way to move past violence as a solution to our problems. Ireland can and should actually play a leading role in creating this change.

NATO is not an organisation that promotes peace in the world. They are needlessly antagonistic and confrontational... anyone with their head screwed on can see this very clearly.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823726#Comment_118823726

If you bothered your hole into looking why Ukraine is not a member of NATO you may learn something.

This is a good start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#:~:text=Plans%20for%20NATO%20membership%20were,fled%20Ukraine%20in%20February%202014.

TLDR:

Russia did its best to make sure it did not happen, from interfering in elections to invading parts of Ukraine to a full-blown invasion we have today....but yea, Its all NATO's fault.

I expect in reply more talking points directly from the Kremlin.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825308#Comment_118825308

My position on NATO is this: as an entity it's primary goal is not saving lives or protecting people. If it was, Ukraine would be a member long ago as the signs of what might happen were there. Ukraine wanted to and still wants to join.

You don't have a notion, do you?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827531#Comment_118827531

NATO is not an organisation that promotes peace in the world. They are needlessly antagonistic and confrontational... anyone with their head screwed on can see this very clearly.

Is that why you sure pro-Kremlin and pro-Putin messages and propaganda on this site? You along with Francie have no credibility on this issue.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827724#Comment_118827724

So if you are invaded NATO doesn't want to know you?

If somebody is interfering in your elections from outside (it happened in Britain too BTW) and it is so obvious that a guy on the internet in Ireland knows about it, that also precludes membership and protection?

Good to know. Not really indicative of an overarching principle to protect is it?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827757#Comment_118827757

You didn't read the link I gave you, did you?

You asked a question, I offered a solution to your answer and you just ignored it and continue on your path to argue in bad faith.

So, what is the point of your posts Francie, when whatever I say, whatever I post, whatever proof and evidence I give you, you will just ignore it regardless?

markodaly

If somebody is interfering in your elections from outside (it happened in Britain too BTW) and it is so obvious that a guy on the internet in Ireland knows about it, that also precludes membership and protection?

If Russia interferes in an election to promote a pro-Kremlin government, which is cold on NATO membership, what should NATO do in this instance?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827736#Comment_118827736

Older shinners are pro Russia because of the support it gave to the Rah via its proxies at the time

Human rights hypocrisy is just a by the by

You always remember your friends, even if your grandmother tells you it shows you what you are

I don't believe one ounce of shinners populism either

Their here and there 'criticism' of the Ukraine invasion is as heartfelt as their other friends in China Cuba and Venezuela

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827785#Comment_118827785

If they know of interference then they should ignore it. Common sense?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827827#Comment_118827827

If the only argument (and it seems to be the primary one here) is 'your a Putin bot' 'pro Putin' when it comes to a discussion and decision on joining NATO then the campaign will crash and burn spectacularly.

Repo101

Why should Ireland join NATO? A potential Russian invasion? British invasion? Do we want to associate ourselves with Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya?

Ireland needs to improve its defensive capabilities both militarily and in cybersecurity/intelligence but we should not be looking to join NATO or any other alliance.

NATO did not cause the Russian invasion and Russia is responsible for that alone, but I don't see how joining NATO solves any problems for us...

More nonsense putinbotism

The fact that recognised putinbotisms being used here in relation to Nato are being called out is just incidental to the fact Putin bots do Russia's bidding professing fake positions about Nato

The fact its all been seen through here and everywhere just underlines this

But hey ho,if its not being paid for or a pay back,it's just foolishness in my opinion and by the 99.9%

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827888#Comment_118827888

Don't worry, we will always have SF Sean Crowe's comments on NATO that it should be disbanded. Oh wait, that has been corrected by rightthink in SF Central. Now deleted from the record.

Yurt2

Another obvious can of worms and major war that NATO has kept a lid on is Turkey v Greece. There is a zero percent chance these two wouldn't have been involved in a brutal war over the last 50 years were it not for their respective memberships of NATO. It's one of the treaty's major achievements.

I'm sure we'll see some Hellenic-Turkish int. relations experts spring out of nowhere telling us how the above is all wrong.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827875#Comment_118827875

If they know of interference then they should ignore it. Common sense?

So, you are giving out now that NATO didn't interfere back when Putin and the Kremlin was getting it on in Ukrainian politics.

A laugh a minute this debate is.