Is it time to join Nato

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269576#Comment_119269576

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks

Tonight's last lesson should be about opinion polls.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269468#Comment_119269468

Hybrid warfare are attacks which fall short of military provocation. So it is not warships you will be facing more likely a couple of ribs launched from a fishing boat. Ireland has no capability to even detect they are there far less do anything about them. Simple, low cost with high impact.

In terms of what attack is more likely - well you would go for wherever you are at your weakest.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269580#Comment_119269580

You are turning into a clear pane of glass at this stage. Caught with your pants down on your support for Russia which has been well documented by other posters here. I would advise gradually moving backwards on this one.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269576#Comment_119269576

Badly worded Question Ireland is not Neutral and never has been.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269580#Comment_119269580

Difference with Iraq the general populous welcomed the coalition. Ukraine they did not welcome the Russians.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269595#Comment_119269595

You still need to back up where I supported Russia. Criticism of the US and NATO is not support for Russia or any of their other current adversaries.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269536#Comment_119269536

What is the difference between the end of a cable in NATO territory to the end which isn't? It's the same thing for the entire length of the cable, providing the same purpose. Why wouldn't NATO be just as pissed off whichever end was attacked, the result is the same either way in that the cable is taken out of action.

What defence does the might of the US have though against exactly the same small scale attack? They could detect it happening just as much as Ireland could.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269667#Comment_119269667

The difference between Nato being pissed as you say and actually doing something about it in none Nato waters is the Issue. It's a hard attack but in a soft area. Nato cannot police the Irish coastal ara fishing zones or air space. They would have to be invited in. And As we are Neutral never going to happen apparently. The Uk policing Irish airspace IIRC is a un written agreement. I.E the Irish Government will not complain. The USA Navy already has infrastructure ships, underwater drones, subs I could go on. And even with all that their current budget is what $180.5 billion. So yes the USA will be fine on their end. Where was Nato when the Russian fleet arrived ? or are Cork fishermen part of Nato.

robinph

So you believe that the US has dedicated submarines, drones and surface ships just for guarding their section of some transatlantic cables? They consider it that vital, it obviously is vital, that they police it so extensively that nobody could get through to attack it... But then they leave thousands of miles outside of their waters exposed to anyone who wants to have a go?

I suspect that the main defence is that its damn hard to attack, and really not worth the effort as there are multiple options to reroute traffic and unless you hit all cables at the same time its really just a minor inconvenience for a bit until they repair it.

robinph

The argument for joining NATO, or spending billions on military hardware, because of a minor potential threat from an unidentified hostile actor trying to disrupt Irish sections of an under sea cable is equivalent to saying that its necessary to have 24 hour manned protection of the entire rail network. Or the electricity network, or anything else you care to think of.

You can't defend against sabotage to your rail network, or electricity network, by spending millions on fancy tanks or jet fighters, or submarines to protect your undersea cables. You just have to hope for the best, and be good at fixing it.

Spending money on military hardware, or joining NATO, is a futile way to try to protect infrastructure like that. All it does is make you convince some people that you are doing something, but all you are doing is funding the arms industry.

Developing intelligence so that you can notice plans for such attacks and try to prevent them is all you can do, but even then you are on a loosing battle as you need to be successful all the time, anyone trying to sabotage you just needs to get lucky once.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119269784#Comment_119269784

The scenarios dreamt up by these people would not look out of place in a Bruce Willis film. Or maybe a Mike Myers one.

Yurt2

With Martin in Madrid last night, the ground has been set for a for a citizens assembly on Irish neutrality, and a possible referendum as an outcome from that dependant on its recommendations.

The conversation is underway now. Neutrality is not some sacred cow. It will be thrashed out and discussed.

Ireland needs to do what's best for our security leaving aside woolly ideological doctrine and at the very least needs to stop being a security sponger.

Yurt2

Had a look at Twitter. A lot of the usual suspects doing their nut in with all this.

The conversation should not be shouted down. Of all topics, a citizens assembly is the best forum to thrash this out in a mature and clear-eyed manner.

At the heart of this will be what's best for Ireland, not what's best for certain political parties' ideological doctrine.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270318#Comment_119270318

ROFL, and joining a military alliance is not an ideological doctrine? You are signing up to a stricter black and white/good or bad ideological doctrine that is more restrictive than the doctrine of neutrality FFS

Neutrality allows us the freedom to step back from conflicts/wars we want nothing to do with or ideologically oppose.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270372#Comment_119270372

I can tell by the ROFLing that you're shook.

This will be thrashed out by a citizens assembly with the input of security, defence and political experts, not by ROFLing ideolouges.

The outcome will be the outcome. And if there is a referendum to flow from it, the people will have their say.

It's democracy, relax.

Neutrality is policy, not a stone tablet retrieved by Moses from a mountaintop.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270407#Comment_119270407

'Shook'? 😁

Yes, the people will have their say Yurt... that's the reason there is no Citizen's Assembly now, the people are speaking through the polling and the government are listening.

MM can swan around EU all he wants but the truth is the government do not have any real concerns here. Otherwise they'd have had the courage of their convictions if there was any real threat to us.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270407#Comment_119270407

Citizens Assembly?

Jesus wept

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270443#Comment_119270443

What'll you do the morning the citizens assembly kicks off? Have a cold shower to wake you from your bad dream?

This is in train. It's happening.

You want the conversation shut down. That's not the democratic process. The world has changed and it will be thrashed out and spoken of.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270492#Comment_119270492

All for a citizens assembly Yurt. The people's decision holds no fears for me.

If the people decide we should join NATO, so be it, I am a democrat and will go with it.

Will you shut up if they decide we shouldn't?

I reckon we'll see more bemoaning of Citizen's Assemblies

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270659#Comment_119270659

Woah Francie. With your talk of 'shutting up' one can't but help but see your censorious side coming out.

I'm clear as day on this, NATO membership should always be on the table for Ireland should it a. suit our security needs and b. as a moral imperative if EU member states are attacked, we should be there to defend the polity and order of Europe of which we are a part.

You won't shut me up on that point and good luck trying to get me to.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268434#Comment_119268434

So you are NOT changing your opinion and that Russia had every right to 'Troll' European countries with their aggressive posturing.

You had an out Francie but alas, you are too stubborn to take it.

Supporting autocrats and dictators are your forte.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270837#Comment_119270837

Ah, Yurt, it's ok for you to depict me as being afraid of democracy but you don't like being asked if you will accept the will of the people?

Good luck kicking off a campaign after a referendum decides against joining.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270407#Comment_119270407

Now, remember, some people on here want to insert a provision into our Constitution giving the British government a veto on the use of the Irish Defence Forces. It is the ultimate post-colonial servility.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270872#Comment_119270872

The will of the people is the will of the people. It's dumb question. I'm a democrat to my core.

You're the one intoning people to 'shut up'

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270839#Comment_119270839

You were going to back up your claims that I am pro Putin by posting pro Putin statements I have made were you not?

Spinning criticism of the US UK or NATO is not it. That’s just your paranoia and servility.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271057#Comment_119271057

And you are the one depicting those with a different opinion as being undemocratic or afraid of democracy.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271089#Comment_119271089

Telling people or intoning people to shut up on matters of principal is profoundly undemocratic.

TheTruth89

We may aswell join NATO we are already basically in it anyway.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271107#Comment_119271107

I asked you would you 'shut up' after a democratic referendum. Seems you won't be. Which means you won't accept the democratic will of the people and their de4mocratically expressed principle of maintaining neutrality.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271125#Comment_119271125

Hopefully a Citizen's Assembly will address just how far our neutrality should go.