Is it time to join Nato

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394691#Comment_119394691

Suspicions are not facts Francie.

Therefore you have no facts for your premise or theory. In other words, you are a Conspiracy Theorist.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394855#Comment_119394855

It was you who claimed they were 'facts' marko.

If calling me a name helps to convince yourself you have seen off the criticisms have at it.

it's just more handwaving and it won't wash.

Perhaps prepare a better, more honest argument when this issue might come before the government in the future.

For instance, I wouldn't be accusing Coveney of being a Putin Bot or anyone else either, if you cannot counter the views they have It just reveals naivety, willful or otherwise.

Remember the world is a bit more complex than the 'good guys in the white stetsons against the bad ones in the black ones', that's for corny westerns.

GalwayMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394907#Comment_119394907

Look Francie I agree with you a lot of the time but there is no 'complexity' about this conflict and it has absolutely nothing to do with NATO. Express these opinions on twitter and listen to Ukrainians instead of just brushing aside facts or get slapped down for scandalous lying about people who've been subject to Europe's worst subjubgation since WW2, you know show compassion, believe 'experts' not a bunch of resentful Westerners whose job is to carry out victim blaming and dehumanization so they can offload any 'seething resentment' over different conflicts throughout the world.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119395978#Comment_119395978

Don't be misled by the spin put on what I have said. Putin is responsible for invading Ukraine.

I have alluded to facts that show NATO and it's principal players had and I believe still have, no interest interest in ending conflict and tensions.

Indeed I believe they were deliberately raised by Bush and others gameplaying Ukraine's membership of NATO back as far as 2008. Other reasons as well as outlined by CAAT and various media.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119396309#Comment_119396309

I have alluded to facts that show NATO and it's principal players had and I believe still have, no interest interest in ending conflict and tensions.

That is not a fact, that is a wild conspiracy theory pushed and perpetuated by followers of Chomsky, those inside the Kremlin and Beijing and nutjobs from QAnon. You are completely on your own here Francie.

Tell you what, go into the main Russia thread and tell us all your opinions about NATO there. You won't last a day, as you will be laughed at and be ridiculed out of it.

Meanwhile, there is a thread in the conspiracy forum discussing the very thing you are discussing here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237179/did-the-usa-play-a-significantly-negative-role-in-events-leading-to-ukraine-invasion

I suggest you post your inane nonsense there and leave the rest of us here who live in the real world at it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398550#Comment_119398550

I posted it here.

All ears to hear the counter argument backed up with facts.

How have NATO acted to end conflict and tensions mark?

What did they do and what was the result?

No invective or namecalling required.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398613#Comment_119398613

Sigh, here you are still posting a conspiracy theory about NATO.

l'll get the mods involved as there should be no room for this rubbish on this thread.

bob mcbob

I am not dumping this link here as I think the headline says it all

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/07/28/british-surveillance-ship-will-monitor-subsea-cables-in-irish-economic-zone/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398718#Comment_119398718

It isn't a 'consiracy theory' mark. It is an opinion based on facts I have linked to.

I see you have passed up on the oppurtunity to put the record straighjt on what NATO has done to end conflict and tensions and link to the results of those actions. Speaks volumes TBH.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398760#Comment_119398760

That is indeed a dsigrace and a result of hollowing out the funding of our defence forces by successive governments.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398888#Comment_119398888

Spending cuts that you agreed to at the time, let the record show.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399134#Comment_119399134

I didn't.

I made the case for NOT spending money to try and join NATO.

GalwayMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398881#Comment_119398881

Have you told Ukrainians it’s NATOS fault or probably kept your mouth shut in case you upset them because it’s plain utter lies which is shameful

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/may/25/russia-ukraine-war-latest-russians-trying-to-destroy-donbas-says-zelenskiy-as-fighting-intensifies-live

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/21/pacificsm-is-the-wrong-response-to-the-war-in-ukraine

Quit the westsplaining and chat with Ukrainians in particular Nadia Dobrianska on twitter before making an absolute fool of yourself

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399312#Comment_119399312

This ask comes up a lot I notice. 'Ask a Ukrainian'

The last people I would expect an objective view from are the unfortunate Ukrainians.

It's really not the 'gotcha' you think it is.

And again, I never at any point said 'it was NATO's fault', I have repeatedly said that NATO and it's leading members have a share of the responsibility for maintaining tension and conflict in the world.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399297#Comment_119399297

So you dont want to join NATO and you don't want to invest in our defences... yet happy for UK, a NATO member to have a veto and use our air space.

I question your mental state in being able to read and comprehend what you type sometimes Francie. Too much tinfoil perhaps?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399413#Comment_119399413

So, you didnt ask them?

Gotcha

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399791#Comment_119399791

If Ireland were to join NATO then they would still be incapable of covering the airspace so it would still be the UK doing so. There is no way Ireland is going to be able to spend the money required to create an equivalent air cover over any period of time. It would be decades of massive investment to even come close, and multiple general elections during that time when the population would be demanding the money be spent on hospitals/ schools/ police instead of a couple of F-something jets from the US.

What does Ireland have to offer NATO though? Zero usefulness militarily and almost zero usefulness geographically.

All it would do for NATO is fill in a blank space on the map of NATO countries.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399791#Comment_119399791

Poor you.

Very clear what I was saying...there is absolutely no need to bring our defences forces to level that NATO requires for admission.

You having to misrepresent that, says more about you than me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399792#Comment_119399792

No, there would be no point. Ukrainians are in the middle of an invasion, feel abandoned and would not be capable of looking at things objectively. A bit like the NATO and it's leading powers cheerleaders.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398760#Comment_119398760

Utterly disgraceful and shameful that we cannot do this ourself and instead a foreign country is doing what we should be doing because we continue to be free loaders when it comes to our own national defense and security.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399904#Comment_119399904

No, you aren't clear at all.

It's like trying to debate a flushing toilet as you spin so many times you have no idea what is up or down.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400545#Comment_119400545

And try again to bluster out of it with some insults.

Can read you like a book

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400528#Comment_119400528

Lack of ability to monitor, maybe.

Lack of ability to defend, probably not that disgraceful. Ireland wasn't in the Cold War, hasn't spent the last century keeping up with the latest and greatest military hardware so is understandably a long way behind.

But what purpose would spending so many billions on such things actually achieve? Other than make Ireland a target.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400624#Comment_119400624

Yes we do not have the proper capabilities to monitor and that is shameful and disgraceful. We have not spent the money we should to have a creditable defense and security force never mind the latest and greatest. Instead in a selfish manner we are behaving as free loaders unwilling to play our part in the defense and security of our own Island and the EU while yet reaping the benefits of our membership of the collective that is the EU.

The purpose of actually have a creditable defense and security force and spending the money to do so not the current 0.3% of gdp which is what we spend now is that we have a responsibility to be able to defend our island and play a role however small in defending the collective that is the EU. We are already a target as the Russian attack on our health service showed not so long ago. While the fact that the Russian dictator is trying to wipe out Ukraine is having very real and direct effects on us every day. We have over 42,000 ( last number I saw) Ukrainian refugees currently in Ireland and dealing with that is literally going to cost us hundreds of millions of euro maybe even north of a billion. Obviously no exact figures yet but as the government has said the cost will be significant. So while the Russians may not be about to land in Galway bay they have attacked us in a cyber manner and their disgusting invasion of Ukrainian is already directing affecting us and is costing us every day financially and will in the end amount to a very significant number.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119400914#Comment_119400914

So what would you spend 1% of gdp on, not that any but a very few NATO countries are spending the specified amount. Would that amount actually do anything useful in terms of defense capacity against a military attack?

Now spending more on cyber protection and coast guard type hardware would be useful, spending any amount of money on hardware that would be useful against the likes of Russia would be totally pointless.

Ireland can't achieve the capability to protect their airspace to the same capacity that the RAF currently does, so can't see how Ireland could actually get to a point where they would meet NATO membership requirements.

Spend more money by all means, but do it on something useful and achievable. Joining NATO isn't either of those things.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398760#Comment_119398760

Shock horror Imagine being the weak link between the USA and Europe's Internet cables. Say it is not so some have said we were exactly that.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119399836#Comment_119399836

Great thing about NATO is you can Ask someone to setup a base. Say the USA even the UK they would be happy to put hardware on the ground here.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119401799#Comment_119401799

No idea why you bring up joining NATO in your response to me. I did not suggest we join in my post or in this thread period when I have posted my opinions.

As an aside not that it matters to me but if Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia or indeed Iceland, Luxembourg and Slovenia can meet requirements to be members of NATO I don't see how if Ireland did ever decide that joining NATO was a good move that we would have an issue in terms of been accepted as a member. But again I am not and have not said Ireland should join NATO so that for me at any rate is not an issue one way or another.

Quite clearly spending all our defense and security budget on the weaponry for conventional warfare would not be a productive way to spend our money since as things currently stand and look going forward it is highly unlikely we face a direct conventional military threat on Irish soil. I would think in terms of conventional forces having a well armed and well trained specialist forces that would be small in number would be a good approach rather trying to build any sizable conventional military force. Cleary as the cyber attack on the health service showed we need to build up a competent cyber defense capability. We clearly need to build up a competent intelligence force which can actually sort and out deal with the kind of covert spying and infiltration for which we are currently utterly uncapable of handing and are a major weak spot for in terms of western Europe. Been an island there is no question we need to build up a competent and well trained naval force with the proper radar capabilities. Given we are an island this arguably could become the largest part of our armed forces and having a small but competent air corp that works in conjunction with the navy makes sense.

In terms of what we spend. Well you brough up 1% of gdp. Currently based on 2021 NATO numbers only Luxembourg spend less then 1%. They spent just under 0.6% roughly double what we currently do. Not including Sweden and Finland only 10 NATO members spent less then 1.5% of gdp in 2021 20 spend above 1.5%. Of the 10 below 1.5% half of them were very close to 1.5%. So in terms of your 1% every member of NATO bar 1 spent more then 1% and the significant majority spent more then 1.5%. I have consistently said in this thread that currently spending 0.3% of gdp we are behaving in the manner of selfish free loaders with regard to the rest of the EU. All happy to take the benefits that our membership of the collective that the EU is but unwillingly to spend the money to play our part in the defense of our island and that collective that is the EU. That needs to stop and IMHO we should over the coming years phase in higher defense spending until we reach about 1.5% of gdp and fully integrate our self into the defense and security of the EU as well as our own island.

• Defense expenditures of NATO countries as a percentage of GDP 2021 | Statista

As I said above due to the disgusting invasion of the Russian dictatorship in Ukraine right now we are been hit financially as a direct result of the 42,000 odd Ukrainian refugees in our country a bill that will certainly end up costing us in the hundreds of millions and maybe in the billions. The threat to Europe and to Ireland from the disgusting authoritarian regime in Russia as well as authoritarianism in other countries is very clear and very real and we living in the for all its warts stable and functioning democracy and free and open society which we in Ireland and most of Europe do it is very clear IMHO and it is high time we stopped been selfish spongers and play our part in the defense and security of the collective that is the EU and the democratic and free and open societies we are part of.

markodaly

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0804/1313835-finland-sweden-nato/

Finland and Sweden on the cusp.

I guess the arms industry must be VERY powerful in these nations to carol them into joining an alliance that wants to create conflict.. or something.

On a serious note, Putin has miscalculated hugely. The West and NATO have never been more united

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427728#Comment_119427728

Our resident "Republican" thinks they should be armed with nerf guns and supersoakers, because anything else is "gameplaying" and risks offending a war criminal.

They should have the right to defend themselves, but not with anything that will actually deter an invasion.