Is it time to join Nato

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119495327#Comment_119495327

NATO vessels regularly use the port of Cork for refuelling already. In the last number of months Canadian and UK naval vessels have been in-port while refuelling (all approved by the Department of Foreign Affairs)

So your Dr. Strangelove-esque nightmare is already upon you.

(Just as a point information, Russian vessels have also in the past refuelled at Cork)

Manic Moran

It may also be worth noting that international law also has rules in place for refuelling or repairing of vessels when they are actively at war, including what to do when vessels from both combatants want to make harbor at the same time (24-hour separation required for departures). So using a neutral port in peacetime is perfectly reasonable.

markodaly

I wonder will the use of explosives on the Nordstream gas pipelines make us more nervous that we, Ireland are sitting ducks, as they can take out our gas pipelines to Britain, our electricity interconnectors to Britain and France and of course the many high-speed fibre optic cables that connect Ireland to the rest of the world and basically underpin our economy.

A stat I heard the other day, was that 10 companies and 500k workers (who work in multinationals) pay 80% of our total tax take.

We are so vulnerable it is not even funny. Russia could us as a warning shot to other NATO members, that they can damage undersea infrastructure at will and that they cannot do anything as they, Russia are allowed to use International Waters.

Of course, if Russia, do some damage to us, what exactly can we do? Send a strongly worded letter to Moscow.

We don't have a Navy per say, we have no alliances.

Podge_irl

Denmark and Sweden both have navies, and are in and almost in NATO respectively and it doesn't seem to have done much good.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679714#Comment_119679714

The attack happened in international waters.

NATO put out a statement warning about the escalation of hybrid warfare.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_207733.htm

The thing is, if our interests under the sea were attack, we would be let holding our cocks in our hand. At least Denmark et all, have NATO to back them up.

Also, NordStream is part-owned by Russia as far as I know. Anything that connects to Ireland is not.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679929#Comment_119679929

I'm aware it happened in international waters, of which we have significantly more of than the North Sea countries, yet they they didn't see this coming.

Has NATO to back them up in what way exactly? Its pretty clear at this point that attacks such as this are not going to trigger a military response.

Damaging the undersea cables and pipelines to Ireland would be a) against the interests of the US and b) against the interests of the EU. Given that a military response seems off the cards, those two institutions are sufficient to respond.

Ireland should probably increase their naval capacity all things considered. How this is an advertisement for joining NATO however I do not know.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679929#Comment_119679929

You are quite correct. It is very worrying.

If Russia decided to take out our cables, our pipelines, as punishment for our statements on Russia, nobody can come to our aid as we are not in an Alliance. We could be used as an example to others.

The long-term economic damage would be horrendous.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679958#Comment_119679958

We, as Allies, have committed to prepare for, deter and defend against the coercive use of energy and other hybrid tactics by state and non-state actors. Any deliberate attack against Allies’ critical infrastructure would be met with a united and determined response.

Unfortunately, Ireland is not an ally of anyone here.

It may well be against the interests of the US and EU to damage Ireland's undersea cables but from a defence point of view they don't have any obligations. If we were in NATO we could invoke article 5.

As per joining NATO, Ireland is vulnerable, not from conventional warfare, but from hybrid and more nuanced means, like cyber attacks. Being in NATO helps us with that. Anyone who thinks not is living in fairyland.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680047#Comment_119680047

We should at least be asking the 5 eyes to sit around a certain embassy.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680047#Comment_119680047

Destroying undersea cables in international waters is simply not going to justify an invocation of Article 5. No one is invading Russia (or China or whoever) because of it. There is not an iota of a suggestion of any such response to what is going on in the North Sea at the moment.

I am not implacably opposed to joining NATO, but I have yet to see a good reason as to why its necessary. I think further engagement with EU militaries via PESCO and intelligence sharing is enough.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680118#Comment_119680118

No one is invading russia anyway. The triggering would allow retaliation either in kind or destruction of surface vessels or subs that get to close to said infrastructure again.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680129#Comment_119680129

No it wouldn't. Nothing "allows" you to start destroying subs getting close to infrastructure without setting off a war.

Any response to such actions would almost certainly be economic in nature, not military.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680134#Comment_119680134

It's not economic Russians already shouting at the USA for the pipe there muttering attacks this and that. We know where theres are they know where ours our expect were not blowing theirs up. This type of hybrid stuff needs knocking on the head. China not even up to it.

Larbre34

The time is near where an economic response to malign military and cyber activities by Russia, is no longer sufficient.

It seems Russia will announce the annexation of the fake referendum regions tomorrow. They will then characterise Ukrainian counterattacks as attacks on the Russian homeland and use that as an excuse to employ more damaging offensive weapons systems, possibly including perhaps tactical nuclear devices with 10% the power of the Hiroshima weapon.

Something like that, or something like a direct attack on Euro-American undersea infrastructure, must trigger the response that has been outlined by a number of retired NATO officials in recent days, ie the destruction of the Kerch bridge crossing and the sinking of the 50 vessels of the Black Sea Fleet.

Putin must be appeased no more. He needs his toes stamped on and his nose broke at the same time, so to speak.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680186#Comment_119680186

I suggest on top of that all there undersea infrastructure land based to that does not affect a 3rd country goes boom too. Cut it off from the world.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680186#Comment_119680186

yeah, good look with that, not going to happen due to nuclear capabilities.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680239#Comment_119680239

Indeed. There are probably significant connections within the Barents Sea and across to Sakhalin in the Pacific, all of which are vulnerable. But it will take absolute unity within NATO and with allies like Japan and Australia to expand the scope of the conflict in such a way.

My point about retaliation in the Black Sea is that it would at least keep things in theatre.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680306#Comment_119680306

Russia was never going to invade Ukraine sitting on the border were the shrieks . Yet here we are.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680323#Comment_119680323

which means we should not underestimate russia's willingness to use nukes.

Gatling

So not so long ago we had people on here calling for the army to be dispanded and the money from defense should spent elsewhere,

Now pipelines get blown up and the same state actors were carrying out exercises over underseas cables and we have no way of inspecting the areas around the cables or protecting the areas from nefarious governments ,

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680455#Comment_119680455

I seem to recall me mentioning this met with the usual crew shrieking will never happen.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680427#Comment_119680427

On who and where It will be like launching an anti tank weapon in an enclosed space do just as much damage to yourself as to the enemy. Wind blows the wrong way mostly. So you irradiate what you want and then huge parts of your own country.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680455#Comment_119680455

Correct.

Act in haste, repent at leisure. But to be fair, no Party that has ever been in Government in Ireland has ever backed up their talk about defence with adequate funding.

Its now likely there will have to be talks with NATO about allowing submarines and maritime surveillance aircraft, like the long range P8 Poseiden, to operate in and over Irish waters and protect the 19 undersea connections in the Celtic Sea, which are joint assets of Ireland, UK, EU and US/Canada.

There is little doubt now that Russia were mapping those cable routes when they appeared off the SW coast in the Spring.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680306#Comment_119680306

That would be a mistaken assumption at this point.

All bets are off.

nigeldaniel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610167#Comment_119610167

I did not know that myself.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681646#Comment_119681646

There's a shot of the guided missile destroyer USS Donald Cook alongside at Cobh.

We could do with a couple of those now!

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681875#Comment_119681875

Imagine,

We need jets too ,

Meanwhile the government is looking at small trainers

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119681979#Comment_119681979

Actually no, it isn't. Its not looking at any trainer aircraft at the moment, despite the conclusions drawn by some national newspapers.

The more pressing gaps in capability are the lack of a tactical transport aircraft, additional medium lift helicopters and a new Garda air support unit spotter plane.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119682890#Comment_119682890

A proper civilian-staffed intelligence agency is also overdue. Growing hybrid threats demand it.

Real Donald Trump

Putin can barely take over a region of Ukraine and yet people still want us to join upto this nonsense? the mind truly boggles