Exiting suckler cow farming.

Anto_Meath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755159#Comment_118755159

I find once you have the right spot for outwintering any cattle they do well on it. Been out gives them a good hairy coat & they go on well then once they hit grass.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118750388#Comment_118750388

Have you looked at a Stabiliser? Naturally polled. I think if you buy a bull now through a multiplier, they give you the GEBVs so you'll see whether they fall on the maternal/terminal side.

Not sure how they sell where you are though.

JohnChadwick

No is stabiliser a breed or what is it? Not much of them on donedeal

Would putting a freisan bull on aax cows be a waste of time?

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118756912#Comment_118756912

They're a composite breed to the best of my knowledge consisting of Angus,Hereford, Simmental and another American beef breed genetics. There like a red Angus from what I've seen but I don't know much about them and there still a minority at least around here.

Would you not be as well off to stick with putting a good quality AA bull on the cow's? I struggle to see what improvement crossing a different breed will bring to you're setup. The AA ticks all the boxes for ease of calving, lively calves, temperament, out wintering ability ect and there eligible for the AA bonus. The likes of a LM bull would offer all the above but the resulting progeny aren't AA and won't qualify for the bonus. It's the same for stabilisers, Dexters ect and you're into a more obscure and less saleable animal then. If it was me I'd be inclined to stick with what had done the business so far and invest in a top quality AA bull.

JohnChadwick

Yea good point. Just thought I'd explore something different and see if a different breed of bull with the aax cows would bring up the weanling weights a bit. Don't finish so no angus bonus but there seems a good market in mart for them. Organic too.

farawaygrass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118757704#Comment_118757704

I’d agree, I’d be thinking stay with the Angus

Anto_Meath

I find the AA out of the Lm cow is an excellent cross. You get a fine animal will capable of killing out up to 380 kgs @ 24 months, grade and R=/+ so you have a nice little bonus. I use AA on heifers & any cow that repeats in August so I do have a few every year and I do always be happy with them. But don't like keeping AAx for replacements as second generation aren't as good of quality.

trg

Anyone use Salers on first time heifers? Seem easy calving and thought they'd be better weanlings than AA

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760404#Comment_118760404

Good calves, easy calving, very vigorous and super growth rates . I would put them on par with the Limousine and far better than AA. On the down side they can be as wild as a Limousine too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760085#Comment_118760085

I like to have Angus or Hereford genetics in a cow for quicker finishing of bullocks or heifers.

The hybrid mix is the sweet spot. Too much of one breed and you lose characteristics

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118771483#Comment_118771483

There seams to be differences within breeds too. I’ve had earlier matured easily fleshed Charolais and other later developers

JohnChadwick

Journal has cost of keeping a suckler cow at €1250. Wouldn't weanlings need to cost €1.5k to make it worth your while based on that analysis.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772065#Comment_118772065

TBH I take a lit of the rags and Teagasc costings with a grain of salt. Any lad running those systems in suckler's especially on good land should have there land taken off them.

The assumption that high costs are recoverable in drystock is deeply flawed. They are costing intensive systems. Even if weaning returned that margin 4-5/ kg the margin from dairy cross cattle would still out shine. At those sort of numbers extensively grazing jersey cross bullocks would leave a larger margin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118772065#Comment_118772065

The farmers journal is gas. It’s always the “if it bleeds it reads” headline. Like this week cracking on about dairy quotas coming back. Most of the paper is advertising along with a lot of the articles.

There are a few good pieces in the journal on animal welfare like calving etc. They should do more on practical side of things around cost control, value for money improvements, cost effective feeding/finishing and labour reduction. They could go to more farm walks as well and write up findings from them.

It’s not a bad time to be changing enterprise as if you have no animals after selling them you can wait and evaluate when hopefully costs reduce.

Jim Simmental

Thinking of rearing a few calves here this year maybe 10 or 15 BB/HE/AA X calves just to see how they go compared to the sucklers, - when the calves get onto to be a few months old would there be any issues grazing these dairy calves with sucklers cows/ calves and Bull - I’m sure they would all take up together 🤔

Anto_Meath

No issues at all running bucket feds with sucklers, infact I think it helps keep the suckler bred calves quite. They also train the suckler bred calves to come into the yard here for a bit of meal. The only thing is the bucket fed calves will probably getting a bit of meal all summer where as you might not introduce meal to suckler bred lads until September / October.

Jim Simmental

Thanks for that Anto great to know.

would you give the bucket calves much meal per head per day during the summer ?

woukd be tricky to do this when they would be running with the sucklers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776283#Comment_118776283

Would you be better off running them separately with them having access to a feed lick and maybe fresher grass?

Wouldnt they be competing with the sucklers for grass and open to worms etc.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776465#Comment_118776465

They’d want 1kg/head/ twice a day

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776470#Comment_118776470

The bucket fed calves would need dosing regularly, no harm vaccinating all calves for IBR & RSV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776508#Comment_118776508

Good idea, maybe a mineral drench as well.

JohnChadwick

When measuring Sucklers vs bucket fees do yee add in time cost of it?

Just considering the fact that bucket fed calves need meal plus regular dosing while Sucklers calves (in my experience) don't at all, so the extra time input for that every week sounds substantial.

Like going to a coop to get meal, feeding the meal, messing around with moving troughs, that surely adds up to an extra 4 hours a week say, then on top of that you could allocate another hour per week (prob half a day once a month) towards dosing between going to vets for medicine stuffs, bringing em down to yard, doing the dosing etc.

If you're hourly rate for your main work is 20 an hour that'd be 100 a week lost as it'd be taken up by the bucket feds.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777711#Comment_118777711

If anything,there is less time with calf to beef. The amount of time that goes into Sucklers is huge. Calving,

On dehorning. You will dehorn at twice the speed with dairy calves compared to the Sucklers.

Dosing is again way quicker with dairy bred calves. They are more docile stock.

On the meal feeding front. It's fits in with the general daily herding, one they are licking meal they will follow a bag anywhere, compare this to a flighty limo.

Get meal blown into the bin,or drop an ibc /jfc tub beside where the claves

No time wasted with breeding.

Overall less problem with and a more structured time. You never know what you will get with Sucklers when you go to do something.

Have both here and it's a mindset of getting structure of your daily routines. I know it will take 15-20 mins to feed replacer, bed up, and Wash up for 50 calves at the moment. Slowly winding down the Suckler numbers

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777711#Comment_118777711

They take up more time for sure. The worse stage is getting them past the powdered milk phase, when they are meal and grass it becomes a very simple system. a batch of 20 calves getting 1/2 a bag of ration morning and evening takes no time to feed. I used to rear bucked fed calves before even when working but you'd be using tit feeders in groups to speed things up and then you had the slow drinkers who were not getting enough.

I didn't notice any difference in dosing, jezz I'd rather dose 200 bucket reared calves then face into trying to dose 25 suckler cows

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777755#Comment_118777755

That's because you're doing the suckling all wrong, chasing the big price for a BB or Ch weanling. All the people who were in our DG doing that have gone into dairying, some people must love hardship.

Jim Simmental

Do the bucket calves need to be fed milk once or twice a day ?

How long do they be on the milk replacer for ?

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778384#Comment_118778384

Far from it. Easy calving, easy keep cow and finish everything here.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778387#Comment_118778387

Twice a day up to 5weeks of age. Wean between 8-10weeks

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778496#Comment_118778496

I think that's the only future for suckling moving forward. Producing show type weanlings is too intensive in all aspects and the return isn't there. If you had an easily maintained herd of cows and kept all progeny to slaughter then you were doing as much as possible to keep the cost base low and maximised whatever return was available.

Grueller

Silage here will cost €40+ a bale this year.

Sucklers eat that at the rate of 8 bales per winter. They then inefficiently convert that to milk for one calf. That is without slurry, ai, straw, veterinary, transport etc. . . . .

It cannot add up.

Bucket feds eat that silage and put it straight on their back. I bought a computerised calf feeder and am rearing 50 calves at the moment in about 20 mins per day. I still also have 40 sucklers and they take far more time.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778857#Comment_118778857

All that's stopping me this year is it probably is a reference year going forward. But I'm quickly coming to the conclusion I still won't be in Sucklers from next year on. It's a combination of hardship and now it's on the brink of becoming loss making which I never thought could happen as I'm not even anyway near intensive. As Albert says the day of rearing these show type weanlens is over. Thats a fools game only for those with too much time and money. They just like to be chest beating at the mart to other lads who probably couldn't give a sh1t either way

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778844#Comment_118778844

On average to better quality land then you're correct but I can't see a dairy bred animal competing with a traditionally bred beef animal on poorer ground. A lot of lad's on better ground have exited suckling and rightly so.

A question I've asked before on here is how prevalent are Irish moiled, Dexter's, Galloway's, Angus ect in mainland Europe? The Europeans use there native breeds extensively yet we have turned our back on ours in favour of other's. A lot of the stock stock portrayed in the beef heartlands of North/South America and Australia are predominantly British native breeds and the resulting descended native breeds of these countries.

In this country unless you're producing a CH or LM or Holstiens in the dairy industry then you're almost looked down upon. There's nothing wrong with those breeds in there own environment but we're constantly trying to put a square peg in a round hole imo. Something has to change moving forward and I think the answer already exists and worked for 100's of years before boatload's of imported fertilisers, grains ect came into existence.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776508#Comment_118776508

The most I ever fed calves was 0.5-1 kg/ day and it was once a day. If I was at it now I be moving to grass only. See a lad near me at it. Long narrow field. Plastic water trough that is moved every day. Calves are backfenced and moved every day. I see a meal trough. Ya upto 12-14 weeks they be getting a kg or maybe more but after that it s bag between 40-45 calves, but his grass is spot on. Calves are not expected to eat out the paddock. He brings in the yearlings to clear it out.

Problem with running bucket fed calves with Suckler cows is worm burden and grass quality. The calv s will have a high worm burden and you will need to dose every 5-6 week or maybe more often.

If you go at calves and want to make money it's setting grass up right you need to do.

funkey_monkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778633#Comment_118778633

kept all progeny to slaughter

Do many of you sell at the weanling stage or do you keep ones on until slaughter? I thought you needed volume to make finishing work.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780444#Comment_118780444

Always sold as weanlings and would have zero experience of finishing cattle. However I think that will have to change moving forward. You've most of the hard work done by the weanling stage and it's a matter of piling on the kilos (efficiently and without excessive cost) until slaughter. That may seem an overly simplistic view of it I know. As for scale I'd imagine it would bring it's own advantages but if you can't farm 5 efficiently then you won't farm 50 efficiently.

Have a look into holistic grazing and management OP

The end of cheap food and commodities is over, the future is to look to the past in a certain way

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780482#Comment_118780482

Actually had same thoughts yesterday too.

Easten

I always understood that the continental cattle were efficient food converters to beef. I still believe this to be the case, the problem is that the only source we have is from the suckler cow. The dairy calf being sold is not a patch on them with regard to food conversion, the standard of airy bull calf has really fallen over the last 10 years

Anto_Meath

The only way to make a good return on dairy calves is bring them to factory finish. There is a right lot of money tied up in dairy calves in the first year between buying, feeding & doseing. It's in the last 6 months when they are turning cheap grass into beef that they are making you money. Often see stores sold in the mart that would be better value than the ones I would have reared myself. But at least with the ones I rear I know their history / dosing, TB status which are all big bonuses.

Homer jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118742069#Comment_118742069

That seems like a good way of doing it, I would prefer to get out gradually rather than just loading all up and off to the mart, I will still need something to eat the grass and with the way cattle are at the moment it would be expensive to stock up with an unknown trade at the autumn.

Homer jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118743207#Comment_118743207

Our land type would be typical North West of Ireland heavy clay ground, grand when you get into April for letting out heavy cows, not really suitable any earlier with the high rainfall, similar in the backend of the year, heavy cows could be in by mid October on wet year. With your way you would be maximising what could be got for both the cows and calves. Just taking out the cow and calf and selling together they are just going to be split up and sold separately so I was probably better doing that myself and saving having to fully restock till the following yearn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744933#Comment_118744933

Fair play to you selling all together but unless young u grade cows it's hard to see them leaving their true value after them. If you don't mind me asking what type of stock did you get into after selling the cows ?

Bass Reeves

As well cows not incalf will put on some condition on silage only over the winter. These should fatten very fast in May/June next year. Next year you would only have one bunch of cattle to rotate through your grazing ground. If they fatten away and make money in the factory you could start picking up similar cows and base your enterprise on this sort of system.

If you have sheep would you consider organics?

Would be an easy changeover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777711#Comment_118777711

Why not buy plain freisian bullocks as yearlings (650) and bring them to finish?

Say 6 bales (240) of silage a head, 300 kg meal (120), mineral dose (5), worm dose, lice (5), vaccines (20), testing (10) and fertiliser and tractor cost (150).

650 + 550 = 1200 day if they made 1450 that’s a nice handy 250 profit

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788419#Comment_118788419

Only problem is if any glut at all of beef comes they are the first to hit the floor.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788732#Comment_118788732

Thats right, could struggle to break even then.