New A2 House Is Freezing!

sydthebeat

the BER system is not a measurement of how well your home is constructed, despite how SEAI sell the system.

its simply a measurement tool used to compare like with like, ie a 2015 semi -d to another 2105 semi d

this case sounds exactly like what can happened when technical regulatory goals have to be met, yet there is no on site quality control. paper targets are met (u values, glazing to wall ratios etc) while real world quality is sacrificed.

too often im seeing houses signed off without air tightness tests, as all the certifier wants is the cert from the BER assessors to say that its A2 or whatever the target is. They dont realise two things, one that the BER assessor can still do the assessment without the test results an two that the BER certificate itself does not confer compliance with Part L

Yellow_Fern

Aside from the already mention sewer under the sink, check places like the gas flu. is cold air coming in there? Check parts of the all where you have a fixture on the outside eg. outdoor lights, outdoor taps and power points. Check behind the washing machine. There will be a lot of lifting and squeezing to be done. Check if there is a hole in the attic door. Water lines to sinks and toilets.

C. Eastwood

Hi Frankiekk.

1. Heat is lost from a house is by either (a) Conduction or (b) Convection.
2. CONDUCTION is heat loss through an element of the structure:- wall; ceiling; floor; windows, etc.
3. I hope that the builder fitted insulation in the floor.
4. you should be able to see the insulation in the attic, which should be approx 300 thick.
5. in a Timberframe house the walls should be well insulated. I have come across a very cold timberframe house many years ago, and discovered that there was no insulation in the timberframe.
6. You could request an electrician to remove some sockets fitted in the timberframe wall and check is there insulation in the wall.
7. double glazing gives a good U value in relation to heat loss.
8. CONVECTION is heat loss by the movement of air
9. Some builders and some workers on site are a disgrace to the Construction Industry, and do not have the proper knowledge of correct construction, and some are just totally incompetent and don’t care.
10. There are 5 main areas in most houses where air is exchanged between the house and the attic void, especially in older houses. (A) holes in the ceiling of the hot press where the pipes from the plumbing and heating pass through at this point. (B) Attic access doors that are poorly fitted and are not fitted with draught excluders. (C) Where the electric wires from the attic void pass down through the ceiling to the Fuse Board (consumer electrical distribution board) and (D) through the holes in the ceiling where the electric wires pass down through the ceiling to the electric light fitting in every room. (E) Downlights that are not air sealed above the ceiling, and /or not properly sealed below the ceiling and
11. also draughts around enternal windows and doors, between the frame and the plaster.
12. To reduce heat loss and draughts and reduce the amount of condensation getting from the house to the attic these holes should be completely blocked and made air tight.
13. Downlighting should be replaced with sealed units. 
14. Health & Safety. Only persons competent in walking in the attic, should go in to the attic to carry out the sealing of these holes. No person except a competent electrician should open any electrical fittings. Expanded foam should only be used by competent persons and strictly in accordance with the manufacturers safety instructions. 
15. All of these holes could be sealed with silicone mastic —-( would be my choice of sealant.) For large gaps it can be built up over a few days. 
16. The attic access door should be fitted with a rubber draught excluder with some fittings to compress the rubber. Also put 100 minimum Insulation on the upper side of the access door ( could be glued on with silicone mastic). 
17. Rooms in the Attic would have other gaps and air leaks which are not mentioned above.
18. where the plumbing pipes pass through the ceiling in to the attic is usually an area of big heat loss.
19. have a look at the areas of heat loss by Convection that I have mentioned above.
20. it is my opinion that you would be wasting your time and money engaging a BER Assessor.
21. you should have an Air-Tightness test carried out on your house.

mickdw

What are people seeing as typical airtightness test results now?

To be honest, A blind monkey could achieve a result that would meet the regs such is the low standard required.

CosyChair

hi i have same problem with vent holes in wall i intend sealing them up in the summer with spray foam & plaster. 9 inch hole in the wall doesent make sence when you are trying to heat your home.

Nsonowa

I have a door to the outside of the house that has a small opening at the bottom. I think it is due to the door not fitting in the frame 100%. I think I lose some heat this way. Maybe you have something similar?

On that note.. does anyone know how to get a door like that fixed? 😁

Biker1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780817#Comment_118780817

Results I'm getting are usually below 3m3/hr/m2 with the odd exception above that.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780969#Comment_118780969

Yeah don't do that for numerous reasons all detailed fully on this channel in the forum.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780969#Comment_118780969

What type of door is it generally a bend in the door has zero way to fix it except for replacing the entire door.

You could put extra door seal on that part of the door to seal the gap as a temporary measure

homewardbound11

Re: what air tightness tests are we getting

1.5 @q50 back in year 2010. Thought I was doing ok at the time . But know now it could have been halved . There were some obvious leaks though at the time . ESP around the chimney breast ( internal structure)

problem I have now is material degrading over the years . Ie part composite/ wood doors expanding at different rates causing gaps .

mickdw

Ive seen a very good result on a fairly tricky one off house I'm certifying. it's a double house with flat roof section' block build - needs care but the owner has been watching everything and doing anything he could to prevent issues.

He got a result of Just under 0.6

Best I'd seen before was around 0.9

Nessys

Hi @frankiekk, I was curious if you ever got your house sorted and what the issue turned out to be? Buying an A2 house and heard some of the people who moved in late last year got an electric bill of over €900 for 2 months this winter, so thinking I may better check that out.

gandalfio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791155#Comment_118791155

Hi. I just bought an A2 rated new build (3 bed semi D, corner house, 113sqm, high wind exposure) and having similar issues to OP.

Our ATT result is 4.51. The house has central extract mechanical ventilation. I know that 4.51 is an atrocious result. I've highlighted this to the builder and asked for another test to identify where the leaks are, and I've requested a thermal imaging camera survey. The builder replied today to say no to both requests and that as 4.51 is below the maximum of 5, it has therfore passed the test/legal requirements.

Is there any other avenue we can go down to get the builder to improve the air tightness or is that it? Losing the energy to keep battling them over this...

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362441#Comment_120362441

Your builder is correct; 4.51 is less than 5 so that box gets ticked. He has complied with the b.regs and that is his viewpoint. Not any good to you I know but that's the b.regs for you.

May I suggest you are wasting your time chasing the builder on this.

If you are interested in understanding what / where are the issues and how to address then an independent survey is your only real option (and bare in mind your new neighbours are also likely having similar issues).

grimeire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337114#Comment_120337114

thats probably due to Air to water its whats heating the house and uses electricity. Not sure how big the house is but thats normal for most Air to water houses.

I have friends with A2 rated houses(independently checked) and have bills of over 250 per month with just the heating on 17 degrees for 2 months. no one living in the house or anything. Others have told me that are living in their houses saying bills of over €600 per month. Note these are big house at over 2500 Sq feet.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362441#Comment_120362441

Is this central mechanical ventilation system reliant on open vents for air supply to it ? I've seen various new builds with central mechanical extract but open vents in key rooms for the air supply. Extract is from wet rooms and centralised single unit with single extract out. Ridiculous system in my view but I'm sure cheap as chips.

gandalfio

Extract vents connected to the system are in the kitchen, utility room and bathrooms.

There are open vents in the kitchen, living room and 3 bedrooms. They're not connected/hooked up to the mechanical ventilation system itself. I really don't understand these systems at all. But something isn't right, I suspect now it's inadequate insulation.

The living room (14.5sqm) for example lost nearly 4 degress of heat overnight from 10.30pm to 8am (19.8 degrees down to 16.2). Left the downstairs thermostat at 16 as a one off just to see what the results would be.

igord

@gandalfio , how did you get that ATT result? Was it a test you arranged after moving in or you got the report from the builder? I'm looking at my A2 BER report and the HLI is 0.992 which is absolutely unbelievable when the house heating used 750 m3 of gas to heat since September to keep close to 20deg C during day.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384259#Comment_120384259

My January electricity bill was e250, for two people in an A2 rated 120 sqm house with the heat pump keeping a temperature of approx 21 degrees constantly.

About half of this was the heatpump.

I have a wifi energy monitor that shows how the heat pump consumption changes on cold days, so I expect this to go down significantly as the weather improves.

It pulls about 15kW on a coldest January day and 8kW on the most recent warm days. It takes about 3kW to heat the water tank.

Buuut.. I don't get oil or gas bills, I don't buy coal or sticks. The house temperature doesn't move from 21. I'm looking at a small solar setup to cover the base load of the house and hopefully knock this bill in half.

gandalfio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391501#Comment_120391501

I requested it from the builder after moving in. The test itself was done a couple of weeks before we got the keys.

grimeire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391552#Comment_120391552

Great insight. Yeah yours is about half the size of my friends house so that could explain the reduced cost but they could be on a high unit price also.

Can you let me know how many KW units you used for January instead of cost? at my current unit rate i would expect around 1200 units for that price.

First i heard of this wifi energy monitor. Is it built into the air to water unit or is this a separate device?

I have my solar setup install but not running yet so cant really comment on it. Its well worth doing especially with the grant but you may not see much of a difference in your winter bills as we get max like 10 hours of sunlight and you know yourself it more bright than sunny. In the summer you will probably more than cover the cost of the air to water but will be sending some or most back to the grid. I think i seen in one of my qoutes that with my setup with 16 panel(6.6KW) system that it will generate 1800 units. I'm not sure is this a generous or conservative amount though.

Nessys

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391552#Comment_120391552

Really helpful thanks! Yes, I believe the new builds now occupied in the estate are about 2x this size, so perhaps the EUR 900 is as reasonable as it can be with these prices currently. Those moving in in Nov/Dec probably also weren't able to lock in to a lower unit rate since electricity providers don't offer the 30% discount anymore. We hope to add solar panels at some point, but realistically, that may need to wait a few years.

Thegalwayman

I had a retrofit done on a C3 rated house now apparently A2 rated no solar PV but has triple glazed windows and new doors and chimney sealed. Had original cavity bead filled prior to me purchasing it. For the ventilation Superhomes used aereco EHT2 vents DCV which seem very poor to me. I await a first harsh winter but I suspect it’ll be expensive to heat.

the AirTightness test was done when the house was missing 2 window panes that had broken on installation but I have a report with the “Energy consultants” van photographed at the front of my house. Otherwise to be honest I wouldn’t have trusted it was done as I was at the house at 10am and a tiler I had seperately was there at 930am on the morning that the blower test was done and it was apparently all done prior to that?

homingbird

Make a start on filling those holes as no point in having tripple glazing windows & a 9 inch hole alongside them a can of spray foam plaster & cement put back covers over the hole & you should see results.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141448#Comment_121141448

Do not do this unless you've got controlled ventilation.

Terrible advice.

mickdw

A2 without mechanical ventilation doesn't compute for me. I'm not saying that the figures don't work because these houses appear to comply but overall it makes no sense as your ventilation will be massively over performing on cold windy days, the exact opposite of what you would like it to do.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141448#Comment_121141448

Do not do this. You need to have air moving in your house to keep the humidity down.

Have a look for Smart Vents, they fit into the hole in the wall and automatically open and blow air into and out of the house based on a thermostat and humidity sensor.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141448#Comment_121141448

you should see results.

You will.....

mould on the walls.

smells remaining in rooms.

chest infections.

asthma.

possibly carbon dioxide poisoning if in a room with a combustible source, and of course.... possibly death.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142523#Comment_121142523

Those are new to me. Any link to them by any chance?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142712#Comment_121142712

Restoration guy in UK did a reasonable review of a unit he installed.

https://youtu.be/-5Daz2ZXAjc?si=2Q1K9PI7BRc17la_

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142712#Comment_121142712

Ah, it wasn't this, but something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Steinberg14-Diameter-Decentral-Ventilation-Recovery/dp/B0BJZN89MF/ref=asc_df_B0BJZN89MF/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=641612032736&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7095624096301535601&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007850&hvtargid=pla-1930202183429&th=1

The one I saw was networked, so you could adjust the fan speed and times with internal temperature and humidity,

homingbird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142523#Comment_121142523

I got the walls of my 1990 house pumped last year & they put those 8 inch holes in the wall in most rooms & i had a constant draught around the house untill i filled them i can leave the windows on the latch if there isnt enough air around it.A LITTLE plactic vent door isnt going to keep the chill out when temp drop.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143622#Comment_121143622

you had fresh air coming into your house.

now you have a house which only gets fresh air when you open a window, equating to a very inefficient ventilation method and totally against building regulations.

homingbird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143639#Comment_121143639

How many houses alongside you have these holes in the wall.

mickdw

You will likely get away with it in a 90s house as there will be uncontrolled drafts from all sorts of places but please put a wall vent in any room with fire or oil burner for your own safety.

You might say it's been fine for the last 30 years BUT the wall pumping might just reduce drafts from cavity enough to now make your house dangerous for carbon monoxide. Get a carbon monoxide alarm today if you don't have one.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143651#Comment_121143651

ive no idea why you think that has anything to do with anything.

are you suggesting every house in the country has filled their ventilation holes with expanding foam?

homingbird

To finish this argument take a look at grand design program on channel 4 & tell me how many holes you can spot in there Houses.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143870#Comment_121143870

They have proper ventilation.

I don't like the holes in the wall, it's a cheap method of ventilation I see all too often in newer homes, and it passes air tightness because they're "functional".

As mentioned, you have a 1990's house, full of air gaps, which is why blocking your vents isn't disasterous. I lived in one for ages and you could feel the drafts coming in the window frame on a windy day.

My house is new and has mechanical ventilation. I (accidentally) turned it off and the house got very stuffy over the course of a day.

homingbird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143999#Comment_121143999

Just after fitting new windows in my house i am alongside a new housing estate That the houses cost 925 thousand each & are fitted with senator windows that my fitter said are pure muck they come in from eastern europe & fall apart after 2 years so new houses arent built as well as you think.

homingbird

To follow up & answer the question your goig to ask me is how does he know this the answer is he used to work for them & used to meet the truck on the way to a job to unload windows as they unloaded windows they used to pull of the stickers off them & put on there own for customers to see.

Shoog

I am surprised that MVHR isn't specified as standard on all class A builds. It's absolutely essential if airtightness is taken seriously. A modern house can be very unhealthy if inadequately ventilated.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144104#Comment_121144104

To answer your question. Yes the overall majority of new homes in Ireland have holes in the walls for ventilation. They are not round they are brick shaped now for looks sake.

Some new homes have put in a form of mechanical ventilation. Not great still relies on holes in walls and extraction in wet rooms, still causes drafts but better in some ways as its managed.

So yes holes in walls are the most common spec here.

I had them, cos I had to put them there when I got my walls pumped it's reg per the grant scheme.

I've since filled them all in because I installed an MHRV system centralised heat recovery and ventilation in one large unit. Each room is controlled.