30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

SeanW

Driving at 50kph saves fuel and reduces pollution vs 30kph. I've already shown this. It also saves people time. The collisions you refer to are largely theoretical in this country, and are not an issue for the vast majority. There may be other countries where your theoretical models are relevant to anything in practice, but not this one.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897742#Comment_119897742

Because going through a red light is the same as exceeding the speed limit. Your specious 'logic' is pretty twisted.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897960#Comment_119897960

Slower speeds cause congestion, because the throughput - bandwidth if you like - is reduced, meaning more cars on the road simultaneously than if speed limits were higher allowing a greater throughput.

Crashes increase when speed limits dip far below engineering recommendation

December 12, 2018

Speed limits set only five miles per hour below engineering recommendations produce a statistically significant decrease in total, fatal and injury crashes, and property-damage-only crashes, according to a group of researchers. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212135021.htm

Seth Brundle

@SeanW - No. I'm saying that 30kph limits should only be applied sparingly and where the case for them is overwhelming. This can already be done with current rules.

So given there isn't an excessive amount of 30km/h zones currently and roads are designated with higher limits based on evidence etc, what makes you think roads won't be changed up from 30km/h under the new proposal? Why the opposition to this proposal to make sure it can be shown roads are designated appropriately based on evidence?

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897982#Comment_119897982

This link compares fuel consumption per 100km driven non stop. It does not imitate urban travel where a car is frequently brought to a halt at junctions, lights or in gridlock. This study does not inform us on fuel consumption in built up areas where the stop/start nature of travel will mean average speed is actually well below 30km/h in many cases. In this scenario strong acceleration followed by heavy braking will often result in higher fuel consumption. There is no 'punishment' to driving at 30km/h in urban areas when such an average speed is often unattainable anyway.

magicbastarder

beat me to it, i was just about to post that. the best speed for open-road efficiency is certainly not the same as the best speed for fuel efficient stop-start driving.

if you're driving between two sets of lights, probably the worst thing you could do for fuel efficiency would be to accelerate to 50km/h and immediately brake.

driving at 80km/h is more fuel efficient typically than driving at 50km/h, but you can bet your ass that trying to do that in moderate urban traffic would drive your fuel consumption up.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898349#Comment_119898349

I'm old enough to remember Dublin City Councils "Love 30" consultation where they proposed to basically wallpaper almost everything with 30kph limits. I'd expect a 30kph as default nationwide to follow along similar lines.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898394#Comment_119898394

If your argument is valid, it would actually prove that speed limit reductions were not necessary, if people legitimately cannot get up to speeds faster than 30kph, then a higher limit is theoretical. However, a lot of 'urban' driving occurs on roads that aren't covered in traffic lights etc. and congestion is often not an issue outside peak times.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898498#Comment_119898498

What are you on about. I referred to average speeds which are inhibited by the necessity to stop and junctions, lights and other traffic. Average speeds in Dublin are often between 10-20km/h because of this. No body say you can't reach 30km/h in your car. What a daft suggestion. What I did point out was the futility of driving at excessive speeds between sets of lights or junctions because it will not improve your average speed and cost you more in fuel.

magicbastarder

anyway, i'll just post my usual; at nearly 7pm on a sunday evening, the drive from the front gate of DCU to the front gate of UCD, a distance of 11.8km, google maps is calculating a time of 30 minutes. i.e. an average of less than 24km/h. and that's done nearly all on 50km/h roads (less than 1km of that on 30km/h roads, and more than 1km on 60km/h roads)

average speed attained is less than half the speed limit. yes, dropping the speed limit to 30km/h would lengthen the journey, but it's clear that as the majority of the journey is done at under 30km/h anyway, a lot of it simply stopped; it won't have nearly as much effect on journey times as people would claim.

Seth Brundle

@SeanW - I'm old enough to remember Dublin City Councils "Love 30" consultation where they proposed to basically wallpaper almost everything with 30kph limits. I'd expect a 30kph as default nationwide to follow along similar lines.

Ah so your opposition to this proposal is not based on anything other than fear and so you've made up your mind without even seeing any details of the proposal before they are even put forwards?

magicbastarder

this is the map from a few years back; i'm not sure how the plans have changed but the plan with DCC was making some of the remaining estates 30km/h, with the main roads remaining at 50.

https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/2022-09/30kp-speed-limit-review-2020_map.pdf

i did have an amusing conversation with a lad who lives on st. canice's road in glasnevin; he was giving out about the 30km/h limit. i said to him 'but sure there are big speed ramps on that road anyway, you can't do 50 regardless!' and his reaction was 'yeah, but people used to tear up and down that road so the ramps are needed'...

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898565#Comment_119898565

That may be true in Dublin City Centre, but it's not the same in every urban setting. Take for example the N59 into Galway City. If you want to go from where the 50kph zone starts to where the first traffic light is, it's 2km of straight driving. That's just one example.

Abbey View to Scoil Baile NuaS, N59, Co. Galway - Google Maps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898577#Comment_119898577

I consider it to be a template of what a 30kph as default would look like, yes. 30kph basically everywhere, with a few exceptions sparingly granted here and there.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898653#Comment_119898653

it's an example which passes open farmland, so not exactly your typical urban road.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896494#Comment_119896494

Are you suggesting then we could have varying speed limits for cyclists? One for those who say they are experienced and a lesser speed for the rest?

When it comes to speed limits, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Be careful what you wish for.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900629#Comment_119900629

You really are getting ridiculous now.

as I previously posted:

how do you propose that anyone on a bike is aware of their current speed? Bear in mind that you also have to include bikes for 5 year olds in your reply. How would you propose to enforce speed limits for bikes? Would cyclists need licences (even 5 year olds)? Would bikes need reg plates? And now we're back to this feckin stupid concept put forward every so often by people who don't think things through properly!

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900629#Comment_119900629

speed limits are not required for bikes, for two main reasons; number 1, they are not motorised vehicles and do not have means to record their speed mandated. as Seth pointed out, would you be required to retrofit hundreds of thousands of bikes nationwide with speedos, and at what cost?

and the main reason: they're not required. the average cyclist would find it very difficult to sustain 30km/h. why force them to use a speedo to ensure they're not exceeding a speed they generally cannot reach?

looking for speed limits for bikes is trying to solve a problem that's not there.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900629#Comment_119900629

Theoretically, I guess we possibly could, if that made any sense and if it made a significant contribution to reducing death and injury on the roads.

But it doesn’t make any sense and it wouldn’t make a significant contribution to reducing death and injury on the roads.

magicbastarder

it might not be intuitive for non-cyclists, but speed is not linear with effort; effort will generally square with speed above a certain speed.

according to various calculators, the effort to cycle at 30km/h is approx 50% higher than 25km/h. as mentioned you need to be quite fit to cycle above 30km/h (unless you have a decent enough tailwind).

the effort required to cycle at 35km/h, say, is double what it takes to cycle at 25.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900791#Comment_119900791

You could have speed limits for cyclists both to protect them for their own good and for the safety of other users of public roads and public spaces. There are many/ most cyclists who toddle along at a moderate speed and are grand. You also have speed merchants on bikes who can be a menace.

magicbastarder

if it's such a good idea, i'm sure it's been done somewhere else in the world.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902120#Comment_119902120

What impact would this have on current death and injury levels?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900791#Comment_119900791

Electric bikes can hit 50kph, the same as cars can currently travel through urban areas. Being hit by one wouldn't be pleasant.

magicbastarder

If the bike can hit 50km/h while providing power, it's a moped. Someone on one of those is breaking multiple laws.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119903170#Comment_119903170

It's mad the people hate bicycles so much they have to make $h!t like this up.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119903616#Comment_119903616

Isn't it also a bit mad that some want 30kph speed limits for all urban areas but only seemingly for motorised traffic. I don't hate cyclists, it makes great sense as a way of getting around a city and that's all the transport I had growing up there. But regulations have to apply to all and arguably speed limits might be less for cyclists in some areas.

magicbastarder

there are some motorised bikes (very rare) that could hit 50km/h. but any bike providing assistance past 25km/h is legally a moped; and the rider subject the to usual laws around moped use (including tax/insurance etc.)

Ninap

Kinda pointless bringing in 30kph limit when there are lots of drivers - taxis included - doing 70-80 kph every night and early morning throughout the city. Check out the Rock Road, for example, with taxis whizzing down the bus lane and terrorising any cyclist that has the misfortune to be there

It would be nice if they would enforce the damn 50s before introducing more theoretical speed limits.

I regularly see cars doing 60-80 though urban streets, especially some of the more suburban ones or anything without a physical choke point.

We’ve councils that seem to think everything can be solved with signs and paint. We need enforcement. Most continental cities have local police enforcing things like traffic law.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119903661#Comment_119903661

Most motorised bikes can hit 50 km/h, it is the limiters that stop them from doing so. Relatively easy to remove the limiters.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/can-i-chip-my-e-bike-and-is-it-legal/

magicbastarder

well maybe the gardai can stop people on chipped bikes who are clearly not pedalling hard enough to maintain the 50km/h, and do them for riding a moped without a licence, tax, helmet and insurance. again, it's down to a lack of enforcement. you can invent all the laws and regulations you want, but if they're not enforced, they're totally moot.

in short, it's not a reason to apply a legal speed limit to bicycles.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907354#Comment_119907354

Let me get this clear, you want a 30 km/hr speed limit for cars on roads, but no speed limit for bicycles and if they can exceed 30 km/hr that's all ok?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907617#Comment_119907617

The electric bikes you are concerned about are already breaking the law, and in far more serious ways.

Legal electric bikes and normal pedal cycles will a)rarely break 30kph and b)have no way to know what speed they are going anyway, and rather importantly c) they aren't cars.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907617#Comment_119907617

Did you read my post? I mentioned they're already breaking the law in multiple other ways and that gardai could get them for that but they don't.

billybull999

I saw a man with his earphones in eating a banana and on the phone while carrying stuff under his arm. He stepped right off the footpath without looking and nearly got hit by a car. Pedestrians are the idiots in a lot of cases

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907617#Comment_119907617

Well yes. Do you need someone to spell out the difference in relative dangers, given the basic physics involved?

Call for nationwide 30k limit outside all schools

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/call-for-30km-h-speed-limit-for-all-schools-across-ireland/

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049952#Comment_120049952

And this would be necessary because of thecurrent high accident rate outside schools, I'd presume. So what are the statistics on this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050360#Comment_120050360

The RSA or Gardai would be the places to look for the details on that. Please post it here when you find it as others might be interested in it.

It should be noted that its also being asked for to encourage more kids to walk and cycle to school.

There's not many adults who will cycle on a road with 50 or 80k traffic so kids won't either. So looking for stats on how many cycling kids are killed is likely low as the numbers currently cycling is low.

If the numbers for walking and cycling are to increase the options are to build protected infrastructure or make the existing infrastructure vastly safer.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050360#Comment_120050360

again, we're back to the shark filled pool argument.

whisky_galore

We all know this will be poorly enforced or not enforced at all, so all this is purely academic.

User142

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120051051#Comment_120051051

If you cause an accident travelling at 50km/h+ outside a school with a 30km/h limit causing injury you will be in court for dangerous driving with absolutely zero defense looking at a hefty ban and a sentence that will show on all future vetting. Maybe even a news article on the conviction that will appear anytime you are googled. Nothing academic about it.

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052598#Comment_120052598

The point is not that it would not be a serious offence, but that lax or no enforcement will cause it to be largely ignored. Stand in any 30kph Dublin housing estate for any example you want.

User142

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052929#Comment_120052929

It's inevitable that adherence and respect for 30km/h zones will increase as time goes by either through a shift in what society views as acceptable or the FCPN system gradually shifting towards harsher punishments for when this lax enforcement catches you. It's a matter of when not if. All you have to do is change the risk reward balance enough and people's behavior will shift. And as more an more drivers respect the 30 km/h rule, it stands out more and more when you drive 50km/h and becomes more and more unacceptable in the eyes of everyone else.

So the lax enforcement regime we have for nearly all road traffic offences isn't a great point against further changes to road rules.

Like we could go down the road of immediately introducing more speed checks and larger penalties coupled with any limit reduction to ensure compliance from the offset. But I kind of feel that's not something people against lowering speed limits are actually advocating for here?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052929#Comment_120052929

This has been covered in this thread already but, just because people are travelling above the speed limit, does not mean that the speed limit is being ignored. If the posted speed limit is decreased then the average speed of drivers decreases, even if it remains above the speed limit. Most drivers have a comfort zone where they feel they can get away with being above the limit. There are many drivers who are happy to drive at 60 in a 50 zone but far fewer would drive at 60 in a 30 zone.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053187#Comment_120053187

Erm, surely that's the definition of ignoring the speed limit?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053203#Comment_120053203

If a posted speed limit causes drivers to change the speed at which they driver then they are not ignoring the speed limit. They are reacting to it, and reducing the speed at which they drive, even if they are not abiding by the speed limit. It's semantics, I know, but it's important to make that point as a response to those who argue that reducing speed limits is worthless if drivers won't adhere to the speed limit. Merely by reducing the average speed it can have a positive effect.

People need to be able to trust speed limits or they become useless.

30 is typically way too slow unless you're in a housing estate. You have to go out of your way to try drive that slow.

80 is often way too fast on dirt tracks in rural Ireland. You have to try hard if you wanted to drive that fast.

Most speed limits in Dublin are absolutely fine and there's no reason to change them.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052598#Comment_120052598

So you only get in trouble in the event of an accident?

Like, duh. I dont think you understand what 'enforcement' means.

Road death stats for 2022 have been released

RTE news : Pedestrian deaths doubled last year, road deaths up 13%

http://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0101/1344384-road-deaths-2022/

The figures show that 41 pedestrians were killed on Irish roads last year, nearly double the amount killed in 2021, when 21 pedestrians died.

A total of seven cyclists were killed last year, the same as in 2021.

The figures also show there were over 1,290 serious injuries recorded up to 29 December, down slightly from over 1,340 up to the same period in 2021.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport Jack Chambers said he was "very concerned" with the number of road deaths.

"The high number of pedestrian deaths, who are the most vulnerable of road users in our community, is also worrying. Working together, we can reverse this trend in 2023."

Chairperson of the RSA Liz O'Donnell said she is "particularly concerned by pedestrian deaths" and that the RSA "weren't expecting that".

Speaking on RTÉ’s This Week, she said that the figures released are provisional and some fatalities are still being investigated by gardaí, but that "speed is a factor in pedestrian deaths".

"If you hit a pedestrian at 60km/h, nine out of 10 pedestrians will die. If you hit them at 30km/h, nine out of 10 of them will survive. So the impact of speed on these pedestrian deaths is really critical".

She said that research is showing that people are not obeying the speed limits.

Ms O’Donnell said the RSA is "urging the Government to review all national speed limits".

FishOnABike

Comparisons to 2020 or 2021 arn't really valid as the country was shut down for significant portions of both years and traffic volumes would have been much lower than usual.

Road deaths are still up a bit under 5% on 2019 figures. Still not the direction one would want road deaths to be going but less than a 13% increase.