30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122073071#Comment_122073071

Surely since cars have a much greater mass than bicycles. their speed limit should be much less than bicycles.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122073071#Comment_122073071

i was responding to blade1. basically i was suggesting what they proposed was ludicrous enough to make me suspect it was a joke.

Podge_irl

30 kph speeds limits are not punishment.

SuperBowserWorld

30k speed limit

OMG such a first world problem 🤣🤣🤣

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122072492#Comment_122072492

Involved, or culpable?

The culpable drivers did something to cause a collision. The remainder of the 3,257,621 did not. They have a right to ask that road safety measures be proportionate.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074852#Comment_122074852

Christ, this crap gets boring quickly! What you are saying is that because most people driving haven't killed or seriously injured another person then they should not be punished by the same rules that should apply to those that have killed or seriously injured someone.

Sure why bother having any laws in that case because it is oppressing those who have done nothing wrong? 🙄

Clutching at straws there, Sean!

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074896#Comment_122074896

No, I'm calling for laws that are proportionate.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074900#Comment_122074900

Proportionate to whom?

AndrewJRenko

Wouldn't want any disproportionate enforcement or anything

https://twitter.com/aaroadwash/status/1784853806229979298?s=46&t=3l1OhjvjsuAh4w9RMjlH8g

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122072661#Comment_122072661

73% of road fatalities are on rural roads,and I wouldn't be surprised if urban traffic was 80+% of all traffic. These measures are disproportionate relative to the source of the problem and will have a minimal effect on the road toll. How people can get all het up about the very small road toll in urban areas when there are 3,000 deaths PA from sepsis, hundreds of which are avaidable when you compare the stats to other countries, is beyond me. Ireland already has a very good road safety record and this perception that speed is the biggest problem is wrong; inattention is the number one killer. When an ambulance medic states that he has attended several incidents where the victim still has a phone clutched in their hand, it's likely not speed that killed.

I'd rather we legislate that mobile masts be configured not to forward or accept signals from fast moving handsets, which they should be able to do as they can measure position via triangulation and even single masts likely could measure rapid movement due to changes in ping times. Handsets with location services turned on would be even easier. I'd hapilly make a five figure bet that such a measure would lead to a far larger reduction in the road toll than speed reductions or speeding fines.

I'd rather the money saved from not pursuing reduced urban speed limits be put towards building an adequately sized and resourced replacement for UHL, where there have been patients on trolles for over 20 years. Ireland has the second lowest beds to population ratio in the EU.

magicbastarder

"I'd rather we legislate that mobile masts be configured not to forward or accept signals from fast moving handsets"

main problem i would foresee is how you would account for car/bus/rail passengers.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122072661#Comment_122072661

How does a lower speed limit make an area less polluted?

1. Emissions are higher at low speed (optimal speed is 50-90kph for lowest emissions)
2. Lower speed will result in traffic moving slower through an area, hence more time to emit

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075968#Comment_122075968

Do you understand what 'proportionate' means, because I suspect you don't.

200 more claims - shocking!. Up 187 on 2022 - what is the world coming to?

This means that there were 1740 uninsured claims in 2022, which proportionally is 1.3% of total claims. Given that uninsured vehicles make up 8.3% of the total, one might wonder why they are proportionately involved in only a sixth of the claims that an equal number of insured vehicles would have been.

I'd say the amonunt of national angst and outrage over uninsured drivers is rather disproportionate, as are the resources devoted to enforcement.

If the country didn't have such a fatuous legal system in the first place, the problem would be trivial, but Barristers having a slightly reduced opportunity to take their fee cut of multi-million payouts has to be one of the most serious issues facing Irish society. /s

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076849#Comment_122076849

That's easy - tough shi​t.

For trains and buses use wifi, for passengers in cars, see above.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

Spot on. My car has six gears, at 30 kph I'd likely be in 4th. But at least it's not a diesel, because 17 years ago I made a conscious decision not to polute and to instead cop the punishment of higher registration fees and excise in order to do the right thing, because unlike the clueless EPA or Greens, I knew what 3-nitrobenzanthrone is.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076753#Comment_122076753

73% of road fatalities are on rural roads,and I wouldn't be surprised if urban traffic was 80+% of all traffic. These measures are disproportionate relative to the source of the problem and will have a minimal effect on the road toll. 

Road safety isn't just about the fatalities. It is also about the number of serious injuries. It is also about those that refuse to partake in active travel because of a risk to safety e.g. how many kids walk or cycle to school?

As for phones, yes they are part of the problem. However, someone driving at 30km/h with their face in a phone will do much less damage than had they been driving at 50km/h.

As for your proposal about masts, etc this is completely unworkable and would probably cost more than getting people to slow down a bit in urban centres.

Lastly, if you think that any (unlikely) savings made by not reducing speed limits would pay for a replacement to UHL then you're delusional!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=speed+limits+pollution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076957#Comment_122076957

Your proposal would also mean that many other options (that don't require the driver to become distracted) are unavailable whilst driving e.g. streaming music.
I've also phoned gardai (using bluetooth) whilst driving to alert them to specific issues I've seen on the roads (drunk and dangerous driving for example).
Lastly, you also have the emergency services who need to be able to communicate using phones but I guess "tough ****" to them too!

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

This has been covered multiple times earlier in this thread. Using Galway as an example, the only roads that have been made 30km/h are relatively central streets with short distances between traffic lights. Main arteries with longer distances between traffic lights have been increased from 50 km/h to 60 km/h or even 80 km/h.

So you aren't replacing a driving pattern of a steady 50 km/h with a steady 30 km/h. Instead you are replacing a pattern of accelerating up to 50 km/h and then braking back down to zero, with one of accelerating up to 30 km/h and then braking back down to zero. For that type of driving, emissions are lower if you are only accelerating up to 30 km/h.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077005#Comment_122077005

Emergency services have radios. And you could easily have a register of IMEIs that wouldn't be blocked.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

So going by that logic, if you're concerned about 30kph limits causing more pollution, then should the 120kph motorway limit be reduced to 90kph? In Germany they're trying to reduce the sections of unrestricted Autobahn's to cut Co2 emissions.

The average speed of a motor vehicle in Dublin city centre is about 16kph, having a 30kph limit would mean that less hard accelerations to 50kph speeds are needed on city streets, which from the many old Diesel cars on the road usually means a lung full of black sooty smoke for the local residents walking down their street.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

as posted above; you are correct that 60-70km/h is often the sweet spot regarding fuel efficiency; but only if you can maintain that. you can't maintain 60km/h in urban areas.

unless you've got regenerative brakes, braking is actually where you waste fuel. and you'd be braking more trying to maintain higher speeds through any area where you're going to be stopping and starting.

i'm not counting idling and really low speeds, because they don't vary whether it's a 30km/h or 50km/h zone.

Furze99

I hear the out of touch 'Taliban' in the RSA are still going full tilt for reducing road speeds across many roads. Such a simplistic, authoritarian approach that will be ignored by those who are likely to be driving dangerously. The RSA are not fit for purpose and Liz O'Donnell should be shown the door.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077005#Comment_122077005

I've also phoned gardai (using bluetooth) whilst driving to alert them to specific issues I've seen on the roads (drunk and dangerous driving for example).

actually, on that note - i was telling a neighbour that i'd the local garda station as a contact in my phone so i'd be able to ring them without having to look up the number. they were surprised; i wonder how many people actually do it?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074900#Comment_122074900

This is your regular public service announcement that @SeanW 's argument revolves around a completely illogical assumption that road deaths result from some uniquely outlandish behaviour on the part of drivers involved in fatal collisions that no other drivers ever demonstrate.

In the real world a large number of drivers are willing to overtake when they can't quite see far enough ahead and take their chance that they will get back on their own side in time. Most of the time that has no negative outcome but, in a small number of tragic cases, an approaching car appears where the overtaking driver had gambled it wouldn't be.

In the real world a large number of drivers are willing to chance taking a look at their phone while driving and hope that nothing untoward happens during their moment of distraction. Most of the time that has no negative outcome but, in a small number of tragic cases, they drift out of lane at just the wrong time or just fail to notice that the car in front has started to indicate and slow down.

In the real world a large number of drivers are willing to travel at a speed slightly faster than that which would give them enough time to stop when something happens ahead of them. Most of the time that has no negative outcome but, in a small number of tragic cases, they come around a bend with just a little to much speed to keep tight enough in to their own side of the road at the exact time that another car is coming around the bend towards them.

In the real world road deaths occur when commonly exhibited unsafe behaviour coincides with another road user being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, in SeanW's world, road deaths occur because of some very specific behaviour by a tiny fraction of drivers, that no other drivers in the country exhibit. Yet he can never actually articulate what that behaviour is. He only defines it by its outcome.

steinbock123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077097#Comment_122077097

Indeed I heard Liz O’Donnell on the RTE lunchtime news today with the usual spiel about speeding, and the higher number of fatalities this year etc.etc. . Dobbo attempted to ask her how many fatalities this year were directly attributable to speeding, but she carried on talking over him hardly pausing to draw breath like a seasoned politician so he couldn’t get a word in edgeways. Dobbo being Dobbo didn’t follow up and repeat the question when she finally stopped talking , he just wound up the interview.
Has that question ever been answered officially i wonder? How many fatalities are directly and SOLELY as a result of speeding?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076957#Comment_122076957

More and more cars are coming with on-board wifi now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076941#Comment_122076941

Did you read the article you linked to at all?

"there were 188,000 private vehicles on Irish roads without insurance, which is one-in-12 - the second highest in the EU."

Seanie's theory is that errant/dangerous drivers are the 'rare exception' and we wouldn't too much enforcement impacting ODDs. This data suggests that we need a lot more enforcement.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077828#Comment_122077828

Yes, it was very obvious that Dobbo was asking for justification for the RSAs proposals. But she simply ignored it as you say. Two fingers to the public and they'll just carry on as they see fit. If only we could elect people to the RSA..

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077898#Comment_122077898

Of course I read it, how else do you think I was able to arrive at those 188,000 representing just 8.6% of the total and having only one sixth the rate of accidents of insured vehicles? The amount of BS in Irish society trying to play up uninsured cars as a huge problem is bonkers and completely disproportionate to the very minor problem they actually represent.

The real problem, and one that is very serious, is the sky's the limit litigation system Ireland allows. It makes insurance expensive, motivating some to avoid insurance.

When I started driving, my car registration cost of about €180, also included 3rd party personal injury insurance coverage. The government was the insurer, and instead of allowing insane, limitless claims, created a defined injury system with fixed maximum payments for each and every type of injury, thus keeping costs contained. There was no legal requirement for insurance because every registered car was covered for personal injury.

New Zealand has the most intelligent insurance system of any country I have ever come across. Ireland is a disgusting legal cesspit. The degree to which Irish society is rigged to require the legal profession and it's massive fees at every turn is insane. I lived 30 years in Australia and never needed to engage or pay a lawyer for anything, and that includes buying and selling properties, and administering a deceased estate which included filing for and getting a grant of probate and transferring a property, which took less than 2 hours and cost about €80.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078078#Comment_122078078

That's some hobby horse you have there about the insurance and legal industry. If you want to do conveyancing or probate yourself without engaging a solicitor here, there's no legal impediment to this. You might find it hard to get a bank to lend property on the basis of your assurances of a good and marketable title to the property, unless you're a solicitor with indemnity insurance backing you up.

While there is merit to some of your points, it's very easy to moan about huge claims, right up until you have a family member with a life-changing injury that requires lifetime car, physical adaptations to the house, or maybe even moving house.

We do now have a 'book of quantum' specific levels of payouts for specific injuries. If the claimant chooses to sue for additional damages over and above these levels, they pay their own legal costs, either directly or coming off their settlement. You can't compare international systems and payouts unless you also compare the care systems that are available to provide support also.

one in twelve uninsured is a HUGE problem. At a minimum, it means that our insurance is about 8% higher than it needs to be, because we're all paying for those who won't pay.

cnocbui

As well as having a better insurance and legal system, the health system is in another league, so those injured in accidents requiring treatment and long term care fare better, even though motoring insurance costs are a lot less.

Everyone with a variable rate mortgage of €200K is paying €3K more in servicing costs per year because of deliberate government policy to deprive mortagage lenders of legal redress against defaulters. I really doubt that the 1.3% of uninsured accident claims is driving up car insurance costs by much.

It is a hobby horse, but you might have one too if you had something drag out for four years and cost you €25k in legal and accountancy fees because the law is an ass, where the same issue in Australia would have cost zero and wouldn't have even needed a solicitor or accountancy firm.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077243#Comment_122077243

So explain why despite all this dangerous behaviour, Ireland has among the best road safety stats in the world, just slightly worse than Norway? Either:

• Irish drivers are just incredibly lucky. Like winning the lotto jackpot repeatedly sort of lucky.
• Genuinely dangerous behaviour is nowhere near as common as you allege, ergo, it does not show up in the data.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075968#Comment_122075968

I had a look at the AA Roadwash page, and found this little gem:

https://twitter.com/aaroadwash/status/1496123688365838336

Words fail me.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076875#Comment_122076875

Noise pollution for one. Particulate pollution from tyres another. Dust, dirt, mud pollution during and after wet weather, for another.

And emissions are not higher at low speed. This is misleading and factually inaccurate.

A traffic jam inching along in 1st or 2nd gear will have higher emissions, but the jam will exist regardless of 30kmh or 50kmh speed limits. An increasing number of cars are either hybrid/electric, or have stop start systems, which minimize emissions during high traffic.

The main cause of emissions is during acceleration. So every time you move off a junction and accelerate to 50kph, you generate more emissions than if you accelerated to 30kph, where you can comfortably drive in 3rd or 4th gear in the vast majority of cars, unless they are large 2 litre engines or higher.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079464#Comment_122079464

'i like a laugh just as much as the next man, but this has gone too far!'

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079453#Comment_122079453

again, inputs and outputs. you're looking at it from the perspective of the steering wheel.

another way of looking at it - ireland and NL are not very highly separated in terms of overall road deaths, but approx half of road deaths in NL are cyclists. this article might help explain why; the graphs are a stark indicator of why a bare stat about road deaths can conceal deeper truths.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/09/19/cycling-in-europe-which-countries-and-cities-are-the-most-and-least-bicycle-friendly

TL;DR - we are third last out of 29 countries for use of bikes as main mode of transport.

magicbastarder

actually, worth noting as well that the table SeanW posts uses data compiled mainly in or from 2019. 2019 was close to ireland's all time historical low, and the fatality stats for 2023 are nearly one third higher than 2019 (and are trending even higher for 2024).

would be curious if the same trend is evident elsewhere, or is it pure 'luck' for ireland that our data was captured at an opportune time?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079464#Comment_122079464

This might help.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parody

SeanW

If your first thought on the 22nd of Feb 2022 (the day Putler invaded Ukraine) was "how can I make this about Irish motorists" then you're not a parodist, you're someone who needs psychological help.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082804#Comment_122082804

Given that particular twitter account exists to parody driving culture in Ireland, I'm surprised that you had to scroll through over two years of tweets before you found yourself offended.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082824#Comment_122082824

I didn't have to scroll very far, and I wasn't offended.

Rather concerned for the posters' mental health. "How can I make this about my petty little grievance with Irish motorists" is not a sane reaction to learning that a major world power is about to start a full scale land war in Europe. I was going to try some glib reply like "cheese with that petulant whine?" but the post was too messed up for that.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083269#Comment_122083269

Ah would you ever stop with the nonsense 🙄

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082804#Comment_122082804

You don't recall the many discussions about the impact on fuel prices then?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083347#Comment_122083347

Of course, but it wasn't anyone's first thought AFAIK. Nor was "how can I use this against my enemies". Except for whoever runs that account obviously.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083370#Comment_122083370

I guess the ninety people who liked the tweet got the joke that went over your head.

https://twitter.com/aaroadwash/status/1496414864901906432

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091621#Comment_122091621

Oh wow, a journalist wrote an article 😯

Meanwhile most people's first thoughts those days would have been along the lines of "what the hell is happening?" or "are they crazy?" or sympathising with Ukraine and its people.

Very few people, if any, were thinking "woe is me, I might have to pay a little more for fuel." And no right thinking person was asking: "how can I use this as a cudgel against my domestic enemies?"

I just hope whoever runs that account gets the help they need for the mental illness they so obviously suffer from.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091902#Comment_122091902

ICYMI - a journalist wrote an article, reflecting exactly the kind of 'all about me' thinking that you're complaining about. The AARoadwash account took the piss out of that journalist, and you took offence at that.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091953#Comment_122091953

Firstly, the AA Roadwash tweet didn't reference any specific article. Secondly, even though most people wouldn't have been primarily concerned with fuel prices in the immediate hours and days after everything kicked off, it's not massively surprising that a journalist would ask about them. Thirdly, there was nothing to be offended by, that whole page is full of nothing but petulant, childish whining, loosely masquerading as parody.

That post just shows how far down the rabbit hole whoever runs that account has gone.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092167#Comment_122092167

So you're telling us how it is ok for the media to discuss how the war would affect fuel prices but when a parody account on twitter comments on it you think they have mental issues?

Seriously, this is the direction that you wish to take the discussion on reducing the default speed limit in urban areas?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092167#Comment_122092167

'Doesn't reference any specific article'! Don't blame them because the parody that was obvious to a large number of posters but went right over your head.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092467#Comment_122092467

"A major world power just started a horrible land war in Europe, how can I use this as a cudgel against my domestic enemies?" is definitely an unusual take.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079929#Comment_122079929

There is a saying that goes something like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and the claim that Irish drivers are bad, despite the data showing to the contrary, is an extraordinary claim.

Even if I conceded that the supposed lack of cyclists is a real issue - which I don't - it's still a big leap from that to say that Irish drivers are bad writ large. Of course, some try to short-circuit this by blaming all Irish drivers collectively for everything bad that happens, regardless of the cause, and you'll likely have seen what I'm referring in the previous posts of some here.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099086#Comment_122099086

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/statistics/roads-policing-fatalities-to-date-for-2024/

71 people dead on our roads, up 18 people (25%) on last year, and Sean is all